Rules of Engagement

[HearseHaunter]

This might not be the place to address this, but there are people out there in the world today who do not understand or respect friendship or relationships. I apolagize if this offends or pisses off anyone.


There are some rules for relationships. There are something's that you do and don't do, no matter how innocent they may seem, even in friendship.



1: You do not make "passes", "hit on", or overly flirt with someone else's Significant Other (S/O). If this does happen you owe both parties an apology. If it is a close friend, you owe them a "heart felt" apology.



2a: As a friend, you do not put your hands on someone's S/O. Even if it's a friendly massage, playing with their hair, etc.




2b: Under the same note, a S/O does not take another's hand, rub their shoulders, play with their hair, etc…

Areas that should be considered off limits: hair, face, back of neck, shoulders, back, hands, knees, and definitely chest, stomach, groin, and rear.




3: You do not call up an ex-S/O's or except their invitations to spend the night or a week with them, or catch a lunch, movie or dinner.




4: As a S/O or as a friend, you do not tell someone, unless it is a relative or someone as close as a relative, that you love them. You especially do not tell them you are "In Love" with them, that you want to be with them or that you want to have sexual encounters with them.




5: As a friend, you respect your friend's wishes when it concerns an S/O. If they ask that you don't do something with their S/O, as a friend, respects those wishes.




6: If your S/O or friend has been in a bad relationship, you do not do things that will remind or put that person back in those situations.




7: What goes on between a person and their S/O is between them two. Give your suggestions, your advice, and your comments to that person. You do not jump in a try to fight their fight for them, or try to start a fight yourself. It is between them, you will not make things better or defend their honor; you will just make things worse.




8: Always communicate. That includes explaining yourself and your feelings in a calm manner and most importantly, listening to the other as they explain themselves and their feelings. You might not agree with them but listen until you understand and respect their views.




9: No matter how frustrating or infuriating the situation maybe, do not get angry. Do not sweat the petty things. If you let the little things eat at you, it will destroy your relationship.




10: If your S/O does something for you that you like or approve of, let them know and try to return the favor. Treat each other as you want to be treated. Love and respect one another as the other loves and respects you.


That includes lying or keeping secerts. With lying and secrets, there can be no trust or respect. With no trust or respect, there is no relationship.

[Morella]

It doesn't offend me, nor is anything out of place here. It just sounds like something a young person (under 40) woud say.

Some of this I'll go along with, but I get annoyed with young people's possessiveness of each other. When it comes to touching someone who does not wish to be touched, I consider that to be a separate issue, because we are normally individuals, not property.

If you're annoyed with me snuggling and talking to your girlfriend, ask her politely to leave with you, or come over and snuggle on my other side, and maybe we can get to be friends too. Maybe I'll put my hand around your shoulder, caress your neck and kiss your cheek. This sort of thing is simple affection and companionship to me, rarely ever leads to anything sexual, and is no threat to anyone's relationship. I guess I am what Heinlein once called a 'snugglebunny'. I often sleep with my friends, with little, or usually no, sexual activity. The closeness, companionship and possible friendship are what I need, whereas some people (usually younger people) need lots of sex, or to possess another human being.

Sexual contact should always be mutually agreed upon, and unless you are positively certain that there is no one who will be offended by seeing what you're doing, you should take it into another room, especially if it is gay or lesbian. Obviously I'm a touch homophilic (not necessarily homosexual), and I don't have a problem with it, but I don't usually like to watch people have sex of any kind, and many others feel the same way, particularly when it involves same sex partners. Gentle stroking, you can usually just do under a blanket, but of course it can easily get carried away. A rule of thumb is that if people can see the blanket moving, you should probably think about what is appropriate for sexual contact, because you are definitely drawing some attention.

-denise

[Morella]

Lying and keeping secrets...does that include the white lies? I'm having to learn not to lie about anything, and it is tough! Lying is ingrained in our culture. You can't get through a TV commercial without hearing at least a couple of lies. Some people call them "slightly misleading statements"...that's another word for "lies".

Suppose your SO asks you if someone is more physically attractive than (s)he is? That's a stupid god damned question, and the best thing to do is probably just to refuse to answer it. If you are coerced, go ahead and let them have it with both barrels. You may sleep on the couch, but it won't be your fault. Same as with the "Does this dress make me fat?" Answer it truthfully. If she doesn't like your answer, maybe she won't be stupid enough to ask that again.

Keeping secrets...here's one that would puzzle the average human. A man cheats on his wife and keeps it a secret for ten years. Finally the guilt gets to him, and he goes to the pastor for advice about whether or not he should tell her. The preacher, surprisingly enough, says "no". This man is being tortured with guilt, which is appropriate because he committed the sin. If he tells the wife, he gets it off of his chest and she zould feel the pain. He would harm her again. Would it be better for him never to admit to it, and to bear the guilt as his pennance?

Interesting moral dilemma, I've always thought.

-denise

[Psychoholic]

I've got to agree with Denise on a few things, including the possession one.

Your SO is not your possession, they are not your property and you cannot tell them what they can and can't do. You can't wig out when what they do, which may be considered reasonable behavior but you consider it too much because you are a jealous or possessive type person. Pretty much the fastest way to run someone off or to lose their respect is to not trust them, and you show that lack of trust by how you handle simple situations.

It is not your responsibility to dictate boundaries for your SO, it is theirs. You can discuss in private what you are comfortable with, and if you have shown the appropriate level of reason, then they will probably be very receptive to your requests and respect your wishes. If someone else is touching them in a friendly manner and they don't stop them, and in some cases even encourage it, then it isn't totally the fault of the toucher. If it bothers you, calmly communicate it to her in private and don't stand around mean mugging and acting like a 13 year old brooding in a corner. If she doesn't want to seem like a bitch and say something, then calmly say 'hey man, can you stop, you are making _____ uncomfortable'.

Implying what you are trying to say to someone is different than saying it to them, and unless you have shown the level of restraint and respect that you are asking for here - I highly doubt it gets returned the same. Reference #8 and #9 on your list and tell me that you honestly behave that way when you are upset.

Chris

[Morella]

Areas that should be considered off limits: hair, face, back of neck, shoulders, back, hands, knees, and definitely chest, stomach, groin, and rear.

You know...that rules out handshakes, and most chiropractic adjustments.

Sorry...I was in one of those serious SO relationships when I was 19 (long before anyone said "SO"), got really heartbroken when it ended , even tried the suicide thing...but due to a bizarre set of circumstances that followed, I have never been able to take another relationship seriously. People have tried pulling me into them, but it just isn't going to happen. The best that they could do is to make me joke about it. The worst they can do is to make me be really rude and refuse to talk to them, and that was only when they just would not give up. They all taught me a little, though. And then Tony came along and we got married, but obviously we don't have the sort of relationship that we started out talking about, because girls hit on him sometimes, and I just laugh. I remember once getting to "third base" with a girl at the Rocky Horror show while he sat right next to me. The idea of me with a girl is a little weird to him, but of course the idea of him with a guy would totally gross me out, not that it would ever happen.

Where was I? Oh, yes. After the breakup of my first and only relationship, I drove a thousand miles away to be with some friends, and they took me out and made me feel like a celebrity. They were hanging all over me, and every time I took out a cigarette, two or three of them would reach out to light it. It really only worked for a day or two, but if you ever need to help a friend who has just broken up, try it.

Then I visited some other friends, a married couple who, I found out that night, were swingers. They said that it would have been better if I had brought a partner, but we ended up going to bed together, and they showed me some new things, one of which I didn't even realize was possible. I'm trying not to get too raunchy here, you know, kind of leaving most of this to the imagination, but I used to joke to myself that if I had learned some of these things earlier, my first relationship might have lasted. At this point, I cannot even begin to say how glad I am that it didn't happen. All I can say is that there is a lot to be said for using condoms, pills, hysterectomy, etc.

There is a lot to know about sex (why in the hell am I writing this?), and there are four ways I know to learn it:

1. Experience with a variety of partners

2. Talking to your partner about what they like (often difficult)

3. Using your natural sensitivity

4. Listening to those god-damned AASECT tapes (I just had to throw that in)

I wanted to be a sex therapist for a while, but I think I just sort of lost interest in the subject, and there are too many nasty diseases that you can get from it now. It was fun for a while, but a little heavy petting is all I do anymore, and only for a friend (new or old) who wants it (or offers it). I don't initiate it.

So...have I done a substantially good job of hijacking this thread yet?

-dee

[Alex Lohmann]

Bitches and hoes

The little white lie part.....to me that can be a difficult area. If a female friend where to ask if she looks fat in her news pants....eh....maybe its best to claim ignorance or go with the flow and just say "Yeah, you look great". Its sometimes easier to spare someones feelings than have to be brutally honest all the time.

I have some pretty stout rules for how I treat people. Im pretty flirtatious, and my wife is and has always been fine with that. Ive never cheated on her and she sees it at nothing more than innocent flirting. For example, I might chat up a waitress at a restraunt and ask if I can dance for my dinner. I'll tell her to watchout, under all this fat is a TWLEVE pack and she might want to avert her eyes to not be overcome with all this manliness. Of course, the idea is propsterous since Im am a chubby bastard and its just to lighten up a conversation and establish a repoir with the wait staff.

For me though, the flip side of that is I never flirt or say inappropriate things to my friends girlfriends. And its not that I feel like they BELONG to my friends, but its just a line you dont cross, and unspoken rule amongst gentleman that you dont say anything that could potentially upset, offend or make his lady friend uncomfortable. On a dance floor if a single lady gets close and wants to dance, thats fine. But if its a S/O of a friend of mine Ill usually make sure theres a certain distance so that shes just dancing with the group and not with me in particular. Its just a respect thing, I expect my friends to make sure they don't make my girl uncomfortable. And its not entriely an issue of not making someones girl upset, its about treating HER with respect, regardless of it being an issue to her dude or not. Like I said, I can be flirtatious, but even at that I would never say anything offensive or rude to a lady in the course of normal conversation.

What an odd thread.

Alex!

[Morella]

Most people will do the little white lie part. I just won't anymore. I believe it was Lao Tzu who said

He who is discontented should demand more from himself.

I have definitely been discontented, so, maybe I got carried away, but I did set three goals. One was to lose a hundred pounds. I've managed to dump 57 of them so far, since November. Another was to become fluent in a foreign language, so I've been replaying all of my old DVDs, some with French soundtrack and some with English sound and French subtitles. I also translated my diary into French (yes, I keep one, no, you can't read it). If Tony found my diary, he would probably try to have me committed for psychiatric help.

My third goal, which has been the hardest, by far, to keep, was to never intentionally tell a lie. I can refuse to answer a question, but I break down fairly easily when someone tells me what to do in a firm voice, especially someone I'm fond of or attracted to, or when I'm tickled with a feather. If you want to know how you look in that new outfit, or anything else that requires an honest opinion without the white lies, I'm not the one to ask. Keeping secrets, though, I can do pretty well, if I'm told to. I can handle a lot of torture if there is a good reason to.

There was a night when I wanted to dance and Tony refused to dance with me, so I danced with someone else. I'm fairly certain that I asked Tony if he was OK with that, but I don't remember for sure. This guy was considerably taller than me, which most guys are not, he led me well, ending up twirling and dipping me at the end, which was not easy to do at the time. It went straight through my heart. Of course I returned to Tony, but I could not get that person out of my mind for a day or two. I like to be dominated, although usually by women. I had to talk to a girlfriend about it, who told me that everyone has such feelings once in a while, then they go away and you move on. They did, and I did.

I don't consider this a strange conversation at all, although I would expect that most people would be too shy to bare their feelings about it.

-d

[HearseHaunter]

It's not about possessiveness, it's about respect. I'm not talking about casual touches or friendly flirting, it’s about Pawing and rude comments to a friends S/O or you one of your S/O’s friend.

You are at dinner with an S/O and one of their male friends. During dinner she reaches over and puts her hand about 3" above his knee. Not just a quick pat on the knee, she lays her hand on his thigh and starts to squeeze and rub. Is this appropriate? In response you raise one eyebrow and say "Excuse me?"

You are shooting pool with an S/O and one of her male friends. She leans over the table to make a shot. He reaches over and slaps her on the ass. Do you have the right to be offended? Especially if you have never met this person until then. And you also know that he has a crush on her, and has since high school.

A married friend has started telling your S/O that he loves her. You tell him that it bothers you and please not to do it again. He starts to do it even more. He finally admits he is "in love" with her. You tell your S/O that a friend should have more respect and it would be best to nip it in the bud and drop contact until he learns the boundaries of friendship. She says that she will, and then she goes to have lunch with him and continues to talk to him. Then for month's she denies even talking to him or seeing him. Did he over step his boundaries? Was she right to lie to protect the S/O's feelings?

One of your S/O's best friends is having a really hard time. The 3 of you go out dancing. You don't dance so they dance together. Just for Attention from the crowd, and she knows it will piss you off, the Best friend tries to open mouth kiss your S/O. Is that respectful? You're S/O says it bothers her after the first time and admits that she does it for attention but doesn't say anything to the friend.

You have a one night stand with some one. Not long later you start to date a friend of the one night stand. But it's not a close friend. This S/O has told you from the beginning that they just need honesty, and asks you not to ever lie to them. Some how, in a round about way, it comes up about this friend from the one night stand. Your S/O asks if anything did happen. Is it right to lie to protect your S/O feelings? Or do you respect you S/O's wishes and tell the truth that it was nothing more that a one night stand before you had met?

All of these situations have either happened to me or to some one close to me. I just believe if more people would think about what situations would be like if the roles were reversed, people wouldn't hurt each other so easily. And if you do hurt someone close to you, let them know that it was wrong by apologizing.

[Morella]

Well, here's my opinion, although I'm not exactly sure that I would have done these things, because it has been 25 years since my one and only relationship. I'm just guessing.

You are at dinner with an S/O and one of their male friends. During dinner she reaches over and puts her hand about 3" above his knee. Not just a quick pat on the knee, she lays her hand on his thigh and starts to squeeze and rub. Is this appropriate? In response you raise one eyebrow and say "Excuse me?"

I would think that a better response would be to excuse yourself to the restroom, walk out and leave them the check, and then find yourself a new S/O.

You are shooting pool with an S/O and one of her male friends. She leans over the table to make a shot. He reaches over and slaps her on the ass. Do you have the right to be offended? Especially if you have never met this person until then. And you also know that he has a crush on her, and has since high school.

I would say that you demand that he apologize to her on the spot, and if he didn't, kick his ass. If he were tougher than you, take him by surprise with a pool cue. I might even join in and help, but if someone didn't at least try to do that, I would think that (s)he didn't care about me, or I would have no respect for that person.

A married friend has started telling your S/O that he loves her. You tell him that it bothers you and please not to do it again. He starts to do it even more. He finally admits he is "in love" with her. You tell your S/O that a friend should have more respect and it would be best to nip it in the bud and drop contact until he learns the boundaries of friendship. She says that she will, and then she goes to have lunch with him and continues to talk to him. Then for month's she denies even talking to him or seeing him. Did he over step his boundaries? Was she right to lie to protect the S/O's feelings?

I think I would go over and have a talk with the man's wife. Depending on her reaction, you might get him into divorce court or you might get into some swinging, but whichever way it turned out, it would have to be casual. You can't get serious with someone who lies.

One of your S/O's best friends is having a really hard time. The 3 of you go out dancing. You don't dance so they dance together. Just for Attention from the crowd, and she knows it will piss you off, the Best friend tries to open mouth kiss your S/O. Is that respectful? You're S/O says it bothers her after the first time and admits that she does it for attention but doesn't say anything to the friend.

She sounds like a playtoy, much too immature to get serious with.

You have a one night stand with some one. Not long later you start to date a friend of the one night stand. But it's not a close friend. This S/O has told you from the beginning that they just need honesty, and asks you not to ever lie to them. Some how, in a round about way, it comes up about this friend from the one night stand. Your S/O asks if anything did happen. Is it right to lie to protect your S/O feelings?

Nope. Chances are she already knows anyway, so even if you think that a white lie is OK, all you're going to do it establish distrust, and maybe get hit over the the head with a kitchen utensil.

-denise

[Morella]

The little white lie part.....to me that can be a difficult area. If a female friend where to ask if she looks fat in her news pants....eh....maybe its best to claim ignorance or go with the flow and just say "Yeah, you look great". Its sometimes easier to spare someones feelings than have to be brutally honest all the time.

Yeah, but if she doesn't know how she looks from behind, she may embarass herself by wearing something funky without realizing it. We all worry about that, which is why some women ask the question, even though it's putting the partner on the spot, and some may actually want an honest answer. If the tags are still on, it's safer to be honest. "I'm not sure I like the way it hangs on you" or "it doesn't fit as well as that (dress that you like to see her in)"

Have you thought about going shopping with her? Some men can do it, others are bored to tears, but whatever she buys, you have to (or get to) see her in it, so why not have her step out of the changing room with a few things, and THEN you have an easy opportunity to say "No, I don't really like that look", without offending her at all. Or she can ask the salesgirl for help. I'm hard to fit, but there is a lady at Macy's who can grab a suit and shirt from the rack for me, and the look is just absolutely "the shit".

Just stay away from the shoe aisle, unless you have a foot fetish, because you are going to get bored and impatient. Let her go back later for the shoes.

-denise

[laidbackryder]

being in various relations i have learned. a person will control the situation how they want it to happen, wheather you are their are not. so it's up to the individual to police themselves. can't lock it up they will give it away, and find a way to do it if the situation is at hand. if saying this is wrong, just remember the ol' sayin "it takes two. too tango !!!

[Morella]

There is always the chastity belt, but it's annoying to have to keep getting the key, especially when you've got a bladder infection. Then there's that mouse trap thing that grabs a hold of the guy's ying-yang with the pointed claws, but it might spring on your finger while you're putting it in, or taking it out.

All things considered, though, there isn't any substitute for trust. One of these days, you're going to get old enough that you're going to need help out of the bathtub. Tony took care of his first wife until she died, and wouldn't have sex with me until we were married because, as he put it, "I'm a little old-fashioned about things like that". I may not be quite so old-fashioned, I just like lot of attention, but neither one of us will give the other AIDS, or run off with someone else. I've gotten frustrated and thought about it awful hard (the running off part), but it won't really happen.

Whether or not Tony considers me kissing and hugging to be "cheating", I don't know. I've admitted to doing it with girls, and he's watched me do it a couple of times. He didn't even complain when I went on stage at RHPS and had a young girl bend me over a chair and give me a spanking (oh gawd, that was good). We've talked about it a few times and he's never asked me not to do it. I haven't with a guy since we've been together, and the more I think about, the less righteous I think that would be. Girls are naturally frisky, but when a guy starts getting into it and he's getting wood, it's not exactly friendly snuggling anymore.

Is everyone still glad we're having this conversation?

-denise

[laidbackryder]

he's getting wood, it's not exactly friendly snuggling anymore.

ha! ha! (saying hi there, i'm happy to meet you! nice shoes wanna fuck???????)

[Morella]

That's exactly the problem. Most girls, including myself, don't get much time to get close together and talk, and men aren't very good at that. They want you to give them two minutes of sex and then go make them a sandwich, then they start snoring. That just doesn't leave my emotional needs satisfied.

-d

[laidbackryder]

doesn't leave my emotional needs satisfied.

thus now you understand my saying" various relationships" l.o.l.

" wow baby we gunna hav a good time ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ"

dam i'm hungree!!!! hey how come i can't post pictures outta my documents any more , i had great one to go w/ this !!!