It's fucking elementary

[Morella]

..or at least, it should be...

OK, I know, somewhere in the back of my mind, that the UN wants to ban carbon...actually, what they want to do is tax anything that outputs carbon, which includes human breath. Now I hear that the EPA is trying to ban lead. Lead. Pb.

Now I realize that most of us were pretty stoned in high school, and some of us rarely attended, but does anyone remember what an element is? Yeah, they're things like lead and carbon...an element exists in nature, and as it is matter, it cannot be destroyed.

So how are you going to ban it? I want one motherfucking neo-hippie faggot liberal to answer this question. If you ban carbon and lead, which happen to be part of the planet, where are you going to put them? You can't build an enormous rocket ship and shoot them into outer space because your demigod, Obama Hussein, fucked up NASA. A more pedantic question, which any dope grower might ask is, how are the trees going to breathe if you ban CO2, provided that you actually had a way to get rid of it?

Then, of course, there are some industrial issues, not that any tree fucker gives a shit. What are we going to do for solder? Tire weights? Batteries?

I want to see them ban lead...that would just be great fucking theatre, but I have an idea that what they're really after is to put a tax on anything that is manufactured out of lead. That is what they are actually doing with "cap and trade", putting a tax on carbon. They should be sending the bill to God, because it was put on the earth as it was created. Maybe that is what the evangelists have been telling us to send money to God for? To pay tax for creating carbon, and lead? I always wondered why an invisible being floating around in space needed our money, but perhaps this is it.

Anyone else following these stories? Anybody have an opinion?

-d

[spastic_chicken]

A lot of products are starting to show up as RoHS Compliant, lead-free.. They have lead free solder now. They even have "lead free" lead for auto body. The shit is getting crazy.

And the thing is, the lead free stuff to me, looks like cold solder joints. Takes higher temps to melt right.

[Scary Guy]

That's fine, just saves more of it for ammo IMO

[kaptinkaos]

The Government thinks it can tax our country into prosperity.

"Taxing a Country into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket trying to pick himself up by the handle." - Woodrow Wilson

[musikill]

"Taxing a Country into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket trying to pick himself up by the handle." - Woodrow Wilson

Fucking perfect!

[Uglybastard239]

Well I'm no neo faggot hippie liberal, but I'll take a stab and let me state before hand that I have NOT been paying attention to most of these issues because the news usually just depresses me...but that said.

I agree Carbon and Lead are both elements and good luck ridding the planet of them. Luckily that's not really necessary. Lead when left to it's own devises is usually a pretty easy going kind of element. Tends to hang out not doing much to fuck with the anybody unless it happens to be in contact with a well or some such. Unfortunately, people (by people I'm referring to the dumb fucks who thought adding lead to anything short of breakfast cereal was a good idea) decided that lead was great for all manner of stuff without doing an over-abundance of research first. Lead pencils and Lead PAINT being the prime examples I'm going to use. This may come as a shock but LEAD PAINT is BAD for the entire human population. I marvel that anybody ever thought it was a GOOD idea. I believe the current idea is to eliminate lead from use in commercial products NOT from the planet.

This may also come as a shock to some of you, but CO2 in LARGE quantities is BAD. That shit will kill you if you're not careful. I mean Lead can make you stupid, but CO2 can make ya dead. Well, I suppose if you're using lead for bullets they can kill ya as well, but I'm talking about CO2 right now. I believe the neo faggot hippie liberal tree huggers are simply trying to cut down the amount of unnecessary CO2 that's being produced. Not that anybody is over in China stopping their dumb asses from producing CO2 out the ass...wait that would be methane and it's a whole other issue.

Anyway, I've lost track of my point. Long and short of it is if products can be made without lead and CO2 production can be reduced without impacting me and my hearse in ANY way I'm mostly for it...and at this point I'm not sure why I bothered chiming in on this topic. I suspect it had something to do with the neo faggot hippie liberal line...that was fucking hilarious.

[Morella]

Lead pencils and Lead PAINT being the prime examples I'm going to use.

OK, let's start with the lead pencils. First of all, I had never actually heard of anyone making a pencil out of lead, so I took 30 seconds out of my life to do some research. While lead has been used for marking, I cannot find any record of lead ever having been used in a pencil, as such. They have always been made of graphite, at least since the 1500's when they were invented. Who made pencils out of lead, and what evidence do you have to show that anyone was damaged by the practice?

Lead has been used in paint, but my only comment to that one is "so what"? Supposedly babies who chewed on peeling walls were coming out retarded or something of that nature, right? I'm asking here...I really don't know why they (the ubiquitous "they") banned lead paint. Lead, in any form, has been blamed for the mental retardation of children, but it's funny how a correlation is always made to high concentrations of it in African-American neighborhoods. Have you ever heard of a study which found that white kids were developmentally disabled by the ingestion of lead? Just "food" for thought.

CO2, if you are stupid enough to open a bottle of it and stand next to the valve, or sit inside an enclosed space with the valve open, yes, you can kill yourself by depriving yourself of oxygen. The same thing would happen if you opened a bottle of nitrogen, argon, methane, nitrous oxide, or any other gas that humans cannot use as an oxidizer. However, CO2 in the atmosphere is plant food, as, as I mentioned, any dope grower can tell you that the more CO2 the plants get, the bigger they get. If you want a more scientific answer, check out the research data from the Biosphere 2 isolation project. One of the biggest problems was that they couldn't keep enough CO2 in there for the vegetation to survive. To put it in simple terms, the trees grow bigger when they get more CO2, they release more oxygen, and a symbiotic balance is maintained for flora and fauna. The earth does a pretty good job of taking care of itself, actually.

Do you actually believe that CO2 is going to kill you? I once knew a woman who was convinced that a small airplane was going to fall out of the sky and land on her, and she was committed to banning general aviation. The only solution I could offer her was to take her up in a plane and show her how much abuse they can handle and still be landed safely, but she wasn't up for that. Hand-wringing has always been more popular than knowledge, or facing fear.

What bothers me the most about all of this hand-wringing is that there is always a tax attached to it, and, in this particular case, that the lead ammunition ban is a rather transparent anti-2nd amendment ploy.

Oh, BTW, the Woodrow Wilson quote is precious.

-d

[Guest]

CO2, if you are stupid enough to open a bottle of it and stand next to the valve, or sit inside an enclosed space with the valve open, yes, you can kill yourself by depriving yourself of oxygen. The same thing would happen if you opened a bottle of nitrogen, argon, methane, nitrous oxide, or any other gas that humans cannot use as an oxidizer. However, CO2 in the atmosphere is plant food, as, as I mentioned, any dope grower can tell you that the more CO2 the plants get, the bigger they get. If you want a more scientific answer, check out the research data from the Biosphere 2 isolation project. One of the biggest problems was that they couldn't keep enough CO2 in there for the vegetation to survive. To put it in simple terms, the trees grow bigger when they get more CO2, they release more oxygen, and a symbiotic balance is maintained for flora and fauna. The earth does a pretty good job of taking care of itself, actually.

-d

chemistry + biology = win

[Scary Guy]

[youtube]5tHHRpAzGcM[/youtube]

DISCUSSION OVER!

[Uglybastard239]

My apologies, I forget that most people now a days aren't familiar with the dangers of Lead Based Paint. It hasn't been available on the retail market for more than 35 years. BUT, I used to sell paint for a living (10 or 15 years ago) right around the time the repercussions of the lead paint ban was coming into full swing in my area, and YES children used to eat the stuff. Not just poor ghetto kids, but kids of all ethnical backgrounds. Not to put TOO racially biased a point on it, but do you really think that the government would have noticed if a bunch of African American kids lost a few I.Q. points? They'd have just chalked it up to natural selection. Ghetto kids get the attention for the problem because they were the ones living in the houses when the paint started to chip off the window ledges. The people with the money had already moved out of the area and into the burbs.

The problem with Lead Based interior paint in particular, is that it has a sweet almost candy-like taste (yes, I've personally tasted it). We had a bunch of contractors in the Youngstown, Ohio area that were making a living sealing lead based paint off with Oil Based paint so that Section 8 (or whoever was in charge at the time) wouldn't become aware that the stuff was in the house. If a House Inspector discovered Lead Based paint they were obligated to report it and the owner of the house was required to pay to have ALL the paint removed by a licensed contractor. Kind of like asbestos removal, because if you grind Lead Based paint up the lead atomizes and can be inhaled. I'm not sure how much damage that could cause, but the people I talked to at the time said it was VERY, VERY BAD. Once the chipping paint problem was masked, the owners could rent out their slums or unload them with a semi-clear conscience. Didn't stop the Oil Based paint from eventually peeling and chipping as well, but then it was somebody else's problem. It's amazing what's ok, as long as it's somebody else's problem.

I'll take your word regarding the pencil lead. I foolishly relied on things I thought I'd learned in grade school and didn't bother to do any actual research. I should have known better before letting my fingers do the typing. But lead shot is a great example of my point thanks for reminding me about it.

Actually I was up in arms myself when they banned lead shot. I mean who gives a shit if some water fowl get lead poisoning or their I.Q. drops a few points...they're fucking ducks. But then I didn't know about the evils of lead poisoning and/or the extent to which people tend to foul up their own water supplies. I admit it I was young and foolish back then.

Is steel shot any less effective? I've shot skeet with both and I'll be damned if I could ever tell the difference and I always cast a jaundiced eye at those that said they could. I'm not saying to eliminate items that are absolutely necessary to our daily lives and or jobs, but if there's a product or substance out there that CAN replace something harmful and it's not anything but an inconvenience then I'm ok with the change. It's kind of like Whaling. Once upon a time Whale products were a HUGE part of the world's economy. We NEEDED to hunt and kill whales for the conveniences of our daily lives. Times change and we can now manufacture everything we used to get from whales, so we no longer NEED to kill them. Unless you're a shrimp dicked Japanese whaler with erectile disfunction...may they all rot in the fieriest ring of Hell.

As for CO2. Yeah, you've gotta be pretty fucking stupid (or have a real death wish) to get yourself killed by the stuff, but the problem with CO2 is that (as you stated) it's impossible to get rid of once it's generated and released into the air. Sure trees love it, but wait...we're cutting down all the friggin' trees that use up the CO2. Some people might think that's a problem. Damned pinko commie faggots. Too much CO2, Methane and God knows what all else are causing problems with the environment if you don't believe me, ask a penguin or a blue whale...or wait ask me about my 100 degree summer in Northeastern Ohio.

Times are constantly changing and we need to find new sources for some outmoded products that are fucking up OUR (not yours, not mine) environment. We need to stop letting the large corporations and the Pharmaceutical companies dictate what we can and can't have. Why are we still dependent on fossil fuels? Tesla was trying to prevent our developing dependence on oil almost 100 years ago and he was labeled a nut. People need to learn to deal with a little inconvenience now and then.

Did I mention I'm NOT a neo faggot hippie liberal OR a pink commie faggot? And I apologize if I offended anybody. Not my intent. But if we keep letting the short sighted, big money dictate our future, the planet is in deep shit. Not in our lifetimes, or even our grand-children's lifetimes; I know, but if we can make a long term change by getting rid of outdated materials shouldn't we? Or should we all go back to working in asbestos insulated buildings and dying of lung cancer in our late 40s?

Just my opinions and I had NO intentions of getting this serious when I made my original post. Still love the neo faggot hippie liberal line. God that's funny.

Glenn

[Morella]

You realize, of course, that I wouldn't let you have the last word on this subject, unless I thought that you desperately wanted me to respond because you felt emotional about it, in which case, I would ignore you, just to be a bitch.

I don't actually care that much anymore, because there was a riot, and the EPA had to tell the neo-hippes that they didn't have the authority to ban lead in ammunition, which is true. Unfortunately, they are still going after fishing sinkers. Do you remember, a few months ago, when Obama actually issued an executive order banning fishing? For some reason, the current government (such as it is) seems to have a problem with fishing. Maybe Obama's daddy didn't take him fishing in Kenya and he's jealous from watching the Andy Griffith Show. I don't know what it's all about, but if we use steel sinkers for fishing, they are just going to come up with a study showing that ferrous oxide causes fish to be retarded, or whatever it takes. Anyways, you can split a bullet, or a tire weight down the middle and make a split-shot sinker out of it, which is what people will most likely do if sinkers are banned.

Not to put TOO racially biased a point on it, but do you really think that the government would have noticed if a bunch of African American kids lost a few I.Q. points? They'd have just chalked it up to natural selection.

Now that's funny!

I make a very tasty canard à l'orange over wild mix rice, but I buy the duck at the deli. I don't do any waterfowl hunting, so I haven't tried steel shot; however, the 2nd amendment says that the rights "shall not be infringed". While banning lead shot does not ban firearms, it does infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms, and therefore it is unconstitutional, and that's my problem with it.

Have you heard about whaling? Obama is trying to get the ban lifted. So far, I have not been able to tell where this man stands on anything...it's like he is doing his best to piss off as many people as possible, which is probably what I would do if people were stupid enough to elect me president, so I have to respect that, I guess, in some way, even if I do hate the man. Personally, I think that whaling should be legal if people want to go out in those little rowboats and throw harpoons at the whales to kill them. That would make it a sport, and not an industry, and I might actually enjoy trying it. Give the whale some sort of fighting chance, I say.

but the problem with CO2 is that (as you stated) it's impossible to get rid of once it's generated and released into the air. Sure trees love it, but wait...we're cutting down all the friggin' trees that use up the CO2.

Don't forget about the forest fires that are burning up all of the trees. Yeah, you're probably right...the trees are all going away, and you are going to die of oxygen starvation. My suggestion is to party like there is no tomorrow.

Some people might think that's a problem. Damned pinko commie faggots. Too much CO2, Methane and God knows what all else are causing problems with the environment if you don't believe me, ask a penguin or a blue whale...or wait ask me about my 100 degree summer in Northeastern Ohio.

Normally I'm pretty good at translating other languages, but I have never been able to communicate with a penguin or a blue whale. Ask me about the -17 degree winter we had here by the Mexican border.

We need to stop letting the large corporations and the Pharmaceutical companies dictate what we can and can't have.

My personal opinion is that all of the drugs that the pharmaceutical companies can come up with should be sold over the counter, to adults, and I think that those companies would have no problem whatsoever with that. I would only buy the ones that were effective at controlling pain, because most of the rest of them just cause more symptoms than they control (note "control", not "cure"). It is our government that is telling us what drugs we can or cannot take, and they're going after the food now. If you want to make your own decisions, about anything, you have to reduce the size of the government.

Why are we still dependent on fossil fuels? Tesla was trying to prevent our developing dependence on oil almost 100 years ago and he was labeled a nut. People need to learn to deal with a little inconvenience now and then.

Well, I need fuels refined from crude oil (it has nothing to do with fossils) because I have cars, trucks, boats, an airplane, natural gas heat in the house, etc., and I spend $10,000 a month on diesel fuel because I have to keep my business going.

As for Tesla, I have no idea what you are talking about, but I am interested in alternative electrical sources, so I eagerly await your edification. I only know of his work with the distribution of electricity, which was rejected because there is no way for the utility company to meter it.

Did I mention I'm NOT a neo faggot hippie liberal OR a pink commie faggot?

I don't really care, this is an equal-opportunity pissing contest. I do get the idea that you smoke a little hooter, maybe a little more than you should, but that's your business, in my opinion.

Or should we all go back to working in asbestos insulated buildings and dying of lung cancer in our late 40s?

When were we doing that? It would solve the social security dilemma, at least.

-d

[kaptinkaos]

http://www.nssfblog.com/epa-considering-ban-on-traditional-ammunition-take-action-now/

Here is a link on how the EPA is being asked to ban bullets because they are made of lead based products. It will be voted on Nov. 1st, 2010

[Morella]

It's already been shot down, no pun intended.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/outposts/2010/08/epa-denies-petition-calling-for-lead-ammunition-ban.html

-d

[Guest]

the NRA's institute for legislative action confirms it was shot down

[Uglybastard239]

I honestly had NO intention of getting this far into this conversation, but you're right it's too good to let go now.

Ok, I vaguely remember some shit about the fishing sinkers and I agree that's just friggin' ridiculous. What are they afraid somebody's gonna suck on 'em?

For the record I never said I thought Steel shot was a great idea either. I personally thought the whole controversy was manufactured and I've always wondered how rusting steel shot was substantially better than lead in the tree huggers' grand scheme. I also haven't reloaded shotgun shells in better than a decade so I have no idea about the current status of that issue and as long as I can go down to the gun shop and buy a box of 12 gauge shells, I doubt I'm ever going to care much. Personally, I never understood why anybody was getting up in arms over it anyway. Shot is shot and if I'm being shot at with it I don't give a shit if it's steel, lead or pewter. I refuse to believe that the ballistics of shot are majorly effected like I said I shot lead and steel and I couldn't tell the difference. Taget goes "poof" I'm a happy guy.

As for whaling. While I can confidently say I'd never go out in a wooden boat and poke a sperm whale with a harpoon myself, I know some people that I'd love to see try it. Hell, I'd buy help 'em onto the boat. If you do any research on whaling in the 19th century, you'll find that the whales actually had a sporting chance. A WHOLE lot of whalers didn't come back. Sperm whales and Humpbacks in particular had a tendency to destroy longboats and/or drag them off never to be seen again. Modern commercial whaling (wait, I mean RESEARCH) is an abomination that should not be tolerated by anyone with half a conscience. If you can watch the footage of Japanese Researches harpooning and processing 1000 whales a year and NOT be disgusted by it than their is something wrong with you. I admit Paul Watson is an incredible douche, but he's also one of the most incredible people on the planet. He doesn't JUST run his mouth, he puts himself in harms way. The asshole is to stupid to realize he can't do the shit that he does. So he does it. It's fucking amazing. I admit I have a thing for marine mammals...always have and I feel no shame for that. They're amazing creatures that have the right to be left the fuck alone. I may change my mind if they start breaking into my house and stealing my stuff, but until that happens, I say leave 'em the fuck alone...and don't even get me started on the hunting of Harp seals.

This may come as a surprise, but I'm not anti-hunting, I'm just anti cruelty to animals. There simply is no HUMANE way to hunt whales and if Obama votes to repeal the ban on whaling I hope he gets shot in the chest with a spear gun. I don't want him to die from it, I just want him to be dragged around by the rope for a while...and I voted for him. (Big surprise I know.) It sickens me that the Japanese are working so hard to get the ban repealed.

As for the fossil fuel issue and your right to blow HUGE billowing plumes of diesel exhaust into the air and quite possible my open window if I'm driving next to you. Do I like it? No, is it YOUR fault? Fuck no. Much like the ban on smokers...I mean "smoking" I think it's a complete crock of shit. Industry, the government and society created these problems over the course of 100 years of short sighted gotta make MY money no matter what the cost and fuck the next guy tactics. We are currently living in the result of our Great-Grandfather's greed and the irony of it is that we're trying to treat the symptoms while the disease is still raging through our system. The pharmaceutical companies have NO interest in a healthy America and they're the main reason there's no Socialized Medicine in the US. And when did Socialized Medicine become an Evil concept? Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to be jealous of CANADA? There's something seriously wrong about that.

The US (and the rest world for that matter) NEVER should have allowed themselves to become dependent on Crude Oil in the first place, which was Tesla's point 100 years ago. How sane is it to build your society around something that you KNOW will poison the planet AND is NON replenish-able? Were they just assuming there'd ALWAYS be more? I mean sure that's what more means, but let's give our ancestors credit for being smarter than that. These weren't stupid people, just greedy ones. They figured it wouldn't come back to bite THEM in the ass, by the time it became a problem somebody else would deal with it. And Tesla's the one that got labeled an alarmist nut-job. Hell, Edison tried to stop alternating current from ever being used. Spread rumors about how dangerous it was. Where are the flying cars they promised us in the 50s? Damned Big Three stopped 'em from being developed. Damned Big Three, I want my flying hearse.
"
And finally. No I don't smoke ANYTHING. I grew up in the 80s and Nancy said "Just SAY No!" How are you going to argue with that? I do however drink anything I can get my hands on, like a good Republican. Not that I'm a Republican either, I'm more an Indy voter usually. I'd have LOVED to see Ross Perot in the White House and I voted for Jimmy Trafficant every time he ran for anything.

Anyway, I gotta go look at cars; the wife needs a grocery getter, so that's all you get for now.

Glenn