It's fucking elementary

[spastic_chicken]

As for the fossil fuel issue and your right to blow HUGE billowing plumes of diesel exhaust into the air and quite possible my open window if I'm driving next to you. Do I like it? No, is it YOUR fault? Fuck no.

My billowing plumes of diesel are sulpher based, and are much less harmful to the environment than your gas burner.

[Morella]

I honestly had NO intention of getting this far into this conversation, but you're right it's too good to let go now.

As long as you're having fun. Debate/arguing/bitching is like gambling, or anything else...if you're not enjoying it and it's upsetting you, just quit doing it. It's never anything personal, but you have made some really dumbassed comments, and I find them quite entertaining.

Don't some species of whales eat the plants that should be taking the CO2 out of the air? Quite a bit of that goes on under the sea, as I understand it. Perhaps if we hunted whales to extinction, you wouldn't have to live with the constant threat of suffocation.

As for the fossil fuel issue and your right to blow HUGE billowing plumes of diesel exhaust into the air and quite possible my open window if I'm driving next to you.

Do you even drive a car? Most truck stops don't have anything but ULSD anymore (look it up), new trucks have to use exhaust fluid or scrubbers, and I rarely ever see visible smoke out of anyone's tractor. However, if you truly know of a way that I can haul freight without spending money on fuel, please, spill the beans. I could use the extra $120k bonus.

The pharmaceutical companies have NO interest in a healthy America and they're the main reason there's no Socialized Medicine in the US. And when did Socialized Medicine become an Evil concept? Do you have any idea how embarrassing it is to be jealous of CANADA? There's something seriously wrong about that.

Now that's entertainment.

The US (and the rest world for that matter) NEVER should have allowed themselves to become dependent on Crude Oil in the first place, which was Tesla's point 100 years ago. How sane is it to build your society around something that you KNOW will poison the planet AND is NON replenish-able?

What makes you think that oil is "NON replenish-able?" Every time they suck my oil divisions dry, I just have to wait a few years and the oil comes back. Do you know where the oil comes from? I was told that the planet would be totally out of crude oil by the time I was old enough to drive, but guess what...I'm pushing 50, and it costs less than a third of what it did in the 60's, if you account for inflation. Oil is cheap, and plentiful. That's why we use it.

If you're so upset about the burning of oil, what are you doing here in a forum where that is basically what we do? Or, and I'll ask you again what this mysterious Tesla plan was, perhaps you have found a way to run a hearse on something else? There isn't much point in bitching about the way people do things unless you have a better idea.

Where are the flying cars they promised us in the 50s?

How old were you in the 50's, and who promised you a flying car?

Damned Big Three stopped 'em from being developed. Damned Big Three, I want my flying hearse.

So go get a degree in engineering and some machine tool experience and build one...and maybe you can make it run on something other than gasoline, like, perhaps, horse shit? That seems to be a renewable resource around here these days.

-d

[Uglybastard239]

Once again let me point out that I'm NOT an eco nut. By nature I'm a lazy bastard who happily lets his hearse guzzle her 10 miles per gallon worth as much as possible and sit around making fun of tree huggers on a semi regular basis. I admit I have my pet peeves, but I'm completely realistic MOST of the time and the only reason I climbed up on this soap box was because of a complaint over the attempts to remove potentially harmful materials from unnecessary applications.

I'm not advocating blind faith in our government (Hell, I have my suspicions about the Moon landing. Sure we PROBABLY landed men on the moon, but I'm still trying to figure out why not a single astronaut developed cancer. Not much protection from solar radiation once you're past the Van Alen Belt...and who knows WHO shot Kennedy.) but I don't have a problem with discarding outdated or dangerous practices simply because I'm suspicious of the guy trying to implement the system. I try to evaluate shit on it's own merits and make my own decisions...based on whatever my psychic friends tell me I should think.

I'm also pleased as punch that I'm providing some amusement. I do try most of the time. Though I have to admit I rarely get accused of making "dumbassed comments" and I have NO intention of getting into personal attacks. I obviously like a reasonably well articulated argument from time to time, but if you're gonna make personal attacks I got WAY better things to do with my time.

That said on with the funny.

In truth the billowing cloud of smoke I referenced actually DID blow into my window a couple of days ago and it came not from a noble truck driver trying to earn a living but from some moron 20 something duelly driver who went screaming past me like his engine was on fire. I'm sure there was something mechanically wrong with his vehicle because obviously all diesels are squeaky clean environmentally friendly peace machines.

I have NOTHING against Semi's or the Trucking industry in general. I know a LOT of truckers and most of 'em are great people. Some of 'em are total assholes, but you'll get that anywhere in life. I'm fully aware that just about everything I own was shipped on a truck at one point or another and I'm hunky dorie with that.

I won't drive a car that smokes because I find it offensive to follow one and I don't expect others to put up with shit I don't want to. I don't smoke cigarettes anymore because I'm a cheap bastard and refuse to pay for 'em. I still work in smoke filled bars and couldn't care less if anybody else wants to light up the burnable of their choice in my presence. I also find it ridiculous that the same government that included cigarettes in WWII ration packages is now passing laws turning smokers into second class citizens.

Let me hop back to the asbestos issue I mentioned earlier and never elaborated on. Do you honestly not remember the industrial asbestos problems? Maybe you don't live in a highly industrialized area. I'm assuming you're aware that Northeast Ohio and Western PA had the biggest steel producing plants in the world once upon a time. Steel Mills are enormous buildings with HUGE amounts of insulation in and around various areas of the plant. Asbestos was commonly used as an insulator back in the day, because it was VERY heat resistant. At the time it seemed like a great product with government sanctions and everything. Hell the military loved it and we even used it in our hospitals and schools. Hell it was in the shingles on our roofs. I think some people may even have crushed it up on their cereal in the morning, because it was just THAT good for you.

Unfortunately, it also dries out and breaks apart allowing microscopic meat hooks to drift around in the air waiting for somebody to come along and inhale them. Ever hear of mesothelioma? that's the special brand of lung cancer that you get from working in and around asbestos and yeah, if you take a wander through the cemeteries in my neck of the woods you see a LOT of graves from men who died in their late 40s and early 50s. But on the up side the owners of the steel mills got their money so who's complaining. Oh wait, that's somebody else's problem too.

As for one of Tesla's alternative fuel ideas. Remember that wireless transmission of electricity? Well, it seems he had the crazy notion that electric powered cars could receive power through remote receivers. I'm not saying it would have worked, but who knows where THAT technology would be if research scientists had applied themselves to that rather than how to improve oil refinement. Yeah, I'm not a chemist and I'm not likely to design a flying car, but I am slightly pissed that the concepts are only now being revisited by the people who DO after a 100 years.

As for whales eating all the CO2 reducing plants. REALLY? You're gonna go there? AFTER telling me about MY dumbassed comments? Yeah, whales are HUGELY dangerous and we should hunt them all to extinction. They've secretly been controlling our society from SEA WORLD. That's a prize winner that is. I may print that out and tack it on my wall.

Obviously you never read any of the ultra cool sci-fi mags from back in the 40s and 50s they promised the future (our now) would be a utopia of flying cars and robot sex slaves. Hell, I don't even have a robot slave let alone that flying hearse. Of course they also tended to predict apocalyptic devastation, maybe we're just getting the wrong future.

As for the Big Three steering this country for the last 60 or 70 years. Have you never heard of Tucker? There are other examples of the Big Three stomping the guts out of the innovative little guy, but that one will do. Also you have to love an industry that would rather pay out law suits than recall dangerous vehicles or do you not remember Lee Iaccoca and the Pinto?

Short sighted stupidity will eventually be the death of us all.

[Morella]

Once again let me point out that I'm NOT an eco nut.

You certainly did sound like an eco nut at first. Now, I would say that you sound more like a conspiracy buff.

I'm also pleased as punch that I'm providing some amusement. I do try most of the time. Though I have to admit I rarely get accused of making "dumbassed comments" and I have NO intention of getting into personal attacks.

I did say that nothing personal was intended, and I meant that. We all make dumbassed comments from time to time. I was just pointing out that yours were entertaining to me.

As for the diesel smoke, I used to love the smell of it. It smelled like going places, like progress, like machinery, all of the things that I love. Cars used to smell a whole lot better than they do now as well. The emissions devices and changes in fuel that are being mandated by the eco nuts, in the name of cleaner air, are making a foul stench that offends me, and the garbage that we have for gasoline makes my engine ping. Now, the EPA is going after the lead in aviation gasoline. Why? Because a company called Swift has invented a substitute fuel that they're willing to gamble the lives of student pilots on. All they have to do is to say that lead deposits from aircraft are causing health problems, and people who think the way that you do will eat it up. In short, you're swallowing the same sort of schemes that you're condemning, hook, line, and steel sinker.

Ever hear of mesothelioma?

Not until the ambulance chasers started talking about it.

on the up side the owners of the steel mills got their money so who's complaining. Oh wait, that's somebody else's problem too.

It's definitely not my problem, and I'm wondering what point it is that you're trying to make. Are you trying to find someone to blame? If the steel mill owners knew that asbestos was going to cause lung cancer and they put it up anyway, there might be a culpability issue, but otherwise, I don't see it. Shit happens.

As for one of Tesla's alternative fuel ideas. Remember that wireless transmission of electricity? Well, it seems he had the crazy notion that electric powered cars could receive power through remote receivers.

And this electricity would be generated, how? As I mentioned, I am familiar with his work in power transmission, but not in any alternate form of generation.

As for whales eating all the CO2 reducing plants. REALLY? You're gonna go there? AFTER telling me about MY dumbassed comments?

Are you telling me that you took that comment seriously?

Obviously you never read any of the ultra cool sci-fi mags from back in the 40s and 50s they promised the future (our now) would be a utopia of flying cars and robot sex slaves.

Once again, I don't see your point. You are angry because someone's fictional view of the future didn't turn out to be a reality? As for robot sex slaves, if you are perverted enough to want one, and you have the bucks, they're probably available. If your budget won't support one, there are inflatable replicas that are easily obtained at your local adult shop, in either gender.

As for the Big Three steering this country for the last 60 or 70 years. Have you never heard of Tucker? There are other examples of the Big Three stomping the guts out of the innovative little guy, but that one will do. Also you have to love an industry that would rather pay out law suits than recall dangerous vehicles or do you not remember Lee Iaccoca and the Pinto?

Yes, I remember the jokes about Pintos. Do you remember the news show that put explosive rockets in the gas tanks of Chevrolet trucks to try to prove that the gas tanks exploded in a collision?

Short sighted stupidity will eventually be the death of us all.

Guess what. We're all going to die, sooner or later. I would rather die for some stupid reason than to live ten years longer with diapers and dialysis, especially if I could be free from eco-bullshit. That's a trade I would definitely go for.

-d

[Guest]

let's go back to this thing about being jealous of the canadian health system. to my knowledge no one goes to canada for medical procedures. they go up there to fill prescriptions, yes.

since when have you heard of any mass medical tourism going elsewhere in the world? by most accounts, people from canada, UK, and other socialized medicine countries come *here.*

socialized medicine leads to rationing of care - and sometimes extremely long wait times to even get for a routine doctor's visit - much less an expensive medical procedure.

[Morella]

The Great Canadian Dream is to be able to join an HMO. I hope that his comment was meant to be entertaining.

-d

[Uglybastard239]

Well, let me start by saying that I DO have a personal peeve against the steel valley steel mills and the owners of same. I freely admit they brought HUGE amounts of money into this area when they were running. But the one of the costs of that money was the local environment. When I was growing up it was perfectly normal to walk outside your house and smell sulpher. My dad used to refer to it as the smell of money, and it was. When that stench was hanging in the air people were bringing in paychecks. The mills ran 3 shifts and were the backbone of a thriving economy in this area. So what if the sky was constantly grey, it wasn't safe to go out in the rain and the Cuyahoga River caught on fire (yes the RIVER caught fire...look it up).

After the Cuyahoga River fire the EPA climbed up the steel mills collective asses and said they had to clean up their mess. Their reaction was to cry poverty, claim the environmental upgrades where too costly and collectively picked up their toys and go home. That's why we have Japanese steel today. If the EPA hadn't tried to force them to clean up their mess I'm sure they'd still be turning out the steel today. On the other hand there are STILL limits on the numbers of fish you can EAT (not catch) from many of the local lakes, rivers and streams including Lake Erie. The empty shells of the mills stand around derelict and UNUSABLE because of all the contaminants that have seeped into the ground around them. Hell, the steel mill "grit" is in the very mortar and stone of the houses and buildings in this area. They never come completely clean because the crud is actually part of the house. The mill in Struthers Ohio used to have a cloud hanging over it as testimony to the brilliance of building a steel mill at the bottom of a small valley. Did I mention I never saw a truly blue sky until I was 18 and moved to North Carolina? And yes after 25 or 30 years the sky IS blue in Ohio. We're dead broke, but we got a blue sky over our head and 100 degree summers.

I'd like to say the mill owner's raped the people and land of this area, but I can't the people willingly flopped on their backs and spread 'em for the money. They wanted their money now. That's what I mean by short sighted.

No I did NOT take the whale bit seriously, but you seemed to take a few of the sillier things I said seriously so I figured what the fuck, turnabout is fair play.

As for Canadian Medical Coverage. I don't know about where you guys live, but some people do go to Canada for medical treatment around here, but I'm only an hour and a half from the boarder if you drive slow. I've talked to a Canadian or two (I try not to admit that in public...kind of like I don't admit I enjoy The Insane Clown Posse) and while the DO have to wait for elective surgeries and procedures (usually not more than a month or two MAX) emergency medicine is a breeze. You show up and you get treated. And NO I'm not moving to Canada. Friggin' overly friendly wierdos that don't have the common sense to lock their doors and sleep with a loaded gun in their house. I'm not convinced that the entire country isn't populated by an odd progressive French off-shoot of the Mennonites (that's Amish folk that drive cars, for you people that don't get live in Amish country).

I can't imagine ANYBODY being envious of a HMO even Canadians. My suggestion for "Socialized Medicine" is relatively simple. I believe that every man, woman and child in America should have the same government funded medical coverage that Federal Employees have. If you've got the money to pay for your own medical coverage, cosmetic and uncovered elective surgeries great, I'm not looking to put the current independent Medical Insurance companies out of business. But the government should officially provide a safety net, not tell people they have to have medical coverage by a certain date. If the poor folk can't afford medical coverage now what makes 'em think they'll be able to if you give 'em a six month warning? How many people don't have medical coverage by choice? Usually it's because they're broke and what money they have only goes so far. Hard to argue the value of medical coverage when you're currently healthy but your house is in foreclosure.

As for Tesla. Yeah he actually seems to have wanted to use as few fossil fuels as possible. As I recall he was a big fan of steam, but I have no idea how he was generating said steam. As for his electrical generators I seem to recall he preferred hydro electric generators. As a matter of fact he's the guy that built that little hydro electric generator up on Goat Island at Niagra Falls...you may not have heard of it. He probably had a hard-on for wind turbines and/or solar energy as well. Talk about an eco-nut.

As for the science fiction writing of the 40s and 50s (heck into the 80s really). I'm talking about little known writers like Heinlien, Asmimov, Sturgeon...I could go on but the point is they had a vision of the future that was relatively obtainable, but it didn't happen because the technologies got squashed before they could reach their full potential. And I'm talking in generalities not specifics. Why hasn't more research gone into space travel? We (supposedly) went to the moon and then...what it stopped be productive? Now we do shuttle launches to repair satellites? What the fuck is that about? Transportation technology is just now trying to find practical alternatives to gasoline engines.

The list goes on, but this has gotten to be a LONG post and I have to go play with power tools.

[Morella]

I lived in the Midwest/Great Lakes area for a short time, and did not like it, mostly because of the racial tensions, but I'm not going to start in on that. I might make jokes about it, but, in reality, prejudice of any kind is a very ugly thing. I had the occasion to visit Gary, Indiana recently, which did nothing to influence my decision that I would never live in that part of the country again. As far as I'm concerned, they can cover the whole area in steel, or just pave it over so that I can drive through it as quickly as possible.

What can I say about Canada and health care...hmm...OK, I'll take a vent.

Did you know that your medical records are freely accessible to the government now, and to just about anyone in the "health care" industry, and that they're linked to your government files, and everything else about you? This is not something that I am speculating on...I worked as a systems engineer in the health care industry for nine years. It is all justified by a program called HIPAA, which people mistakenly believe, protects your privacy. It's actually just the opposite. Considering that the government has this much respect for you, are you sure that you want them in charge of your health care? What happens if they say "no" to a procedure that you need? What happens if a government doctor screws up? Think you'll have any recourse? The government recently signed me up for Medicare, thus causing my health insurance to refuse to pay claims, and I have no freaking idea why. They sent me $250 of Obama Money as well...for no particular reason. Thanks, taxpayers, I spent it on beer. I don't want Medicare, and I'm having a hell of a time getting the government to cancel it. I don't want the government to have anything to do with my life, because they are a bunch of fuckups, and that is the difference between me and a Canadian. I've been there, spent some time there, and those people expect the government to pay for anything they want. How in the hell they manage to make ends meet, I don't know. Maggie Thatcher once pointed out that a socialist country can't exist without a Capitalist trading partner, so if the US economy gets any worse, I can't imagine how bad it's going to get for the Cannucks.

My suggestion for "Socialized Medicine" is relatively simple. I believe that every man, woman and child in America should have the same government funded medical coverage that Federal Employees have.

I once talked to a socialist who believed that anyone who worked in a factory should be able to afford to buy the product that they produced. I suppose this means that if you build Lear Jets, you should have one, and if you work for Del Monte, you should have a can of tomatoes? Maybe everyone should have health care, and whatever else they want, but what you don't have is the right to make a doctor work on you for free, any more than I have the right to make you wash my car...whether or not I believe that everyone should have a clean car. Why should I pay for your health care? Get a fucking job.

As for the science fiction writing of the 40s and 50s (heck into the 80s really). I'm talking about little known writers like Heinlien, Asmimov, Sturgeon...I could go on but the point is they had a vision of the future that was relatively obtainable, but it didn't happen because the technologies got squashed before they could reach their full potential. And I'm talking in generalities not specifics. Why hasn't more research gone into space travel?

Because the Kenyan Muslim that you voted for cut the funding to NASA? Just taking a wild one here.

We (supposedly) went to the moon and then...what it stopped be productive?

What were we producing on the moon?

Now we do shuttle launches to repair satellites? What the fuck is that about?

We DID do shuttle launches to repair satellites, and it was all about GPS navigation, cell phone communications, military communications, cable TV, and everything else that we have come to take for granted. At this point, however, when something goes wrong, whether it happens by itself, the Muslims launch an EMP bomb, or whatever, we have no way to fix it.

Transportation technology is just now trying to find practical alternatives to gasoline engines.

I happen to like gasoline engines, as most people do, and the reason that not much work has gone into alternatives is that nobody would want to buy them. You see, there is this thing called money that is needed for research, and while our current government seems to think that the answer is to print more of it on a press, in reality, we have to produce goods, and sell them, to make real money.

-d

[Uglybastard239]

Ok, now I'm beginning to think you're intentionally missing my points just to keep me ranting. But I'll take another stab because I've always been a bit of a masochist.

I'm gonna skip over the midwest bit because...well I mostly agree. These places have turned into pits since the heavy industry has shut down and I agree that the racial tensions are a major pain in the ass. Way too many angry people of all colors in the midwest.

I've never trusted my government as far as I could throw my hearse. That's one of the reasons I like to play with the idea that the moon landing might not have happened. Russia was kicking our ass in the space race right straight along and then suddenly "shazam" we leap ahead of 'em and land on the moon. It just smells a little fishy. I know we had the technology to fake the moon landing and I know the government had reasons to want to fake the moon landing. I'm 95% sure that we landed on the moon, I'm just waiting for impartial pictures of the stuff we supposedly left up there. It'll be a Hell of a joke on the world if it was faked though.

Uhmm. Obama's only been in office how long? Where's a manned Mars landing? Where's the significant progressed towards interstellar flight? I have a hard time believing you're blaming Obama for decades of not a lot of space research happening. I suspect that's one of the reasons the space program is on the chopping block. They haven't been doing a Hell of a lot except servicing satellites. Important as that is to our current lifestyle it's not overly glamorous. Compare Neil Armstrong landing on the moon to; I don't know who the fuck, repaired the Hubbel telescope (yes I could look it up, but NO I don't give a shit). You're telling me we could go to the moon in 69 and with all the computing and technological advancements since then, we can't land people on Mars? Seems a bit odd, where has NASA been spending our tax dollars? Helping Mythbusters prove the moon landing actually happened? Seems like a fine use of government funding.

I've got absolutely nothing against gasoline engines. Just like the MOST PEOPLE you referred to, I grew up around 'em. They are an essential part of our society and culture. But what if they weren't? Think of the advancements that could and would have been made over 100 years of progress. What if, instead of gasoline engines, Tesla's ideas had been put in place 100 years ago and cars worked on electric motors instead? You'd have grown up in a society where electric powered vehicles were the norm and gasoline engines would be used for power tools and lawn care equipment if at all. Imagine an electric car that could do 140 mph with no fuel supply on board. Sure it's science fiction, but only because Tesla was labeled a nut job and his radical ideas were buried.

I'm NOT advocating a socialized government. Why does anyone who mentions the notion of a public health care system get buried under the Socialist label? I know I probably brought in on myself by using the dread words "socialized medicine", but calling it a "public health care system" doesn't change what it is.

I believe people should work for what they want. Get a job, earn money and buy stuff, not that it's always an easy task with today's economy. But I also believe that the current state of health care in this country is ridiculous. Should I be paying a substantial chunk of my paycheck for medical coverage that won't even cover an exotic pre-existing condition such as High Blood Pressure? That seems reasonable? Other than maintenance appointments how often does the average American use their over-priced medical insurance? Sure it's great if you fall off a ladder and break your leg, but should you be paying for years on the odd chance that you MIGHT get sick or injured? We can't all be in the teamsters union or SAG or whoever else has great insurance...like Congress for instance. Most of us work for small non union companies that can't afford SUPER insurance.

If you worked in the Health Care industry you know the main reasons insurance prices are through the roof. It's the cost of health care. And the cost of health care is through the roof, because of malpractice insurance and the cost of high end brand name pharmaceuticals. I'm all for a system that eliminates a large portion of this kind of crap.

[Jormer]

I'm NOT advocating a socialized government. Why does anyone who mentions the notion of a public health care system get buried under the Socialist label? I know I probably brought in on myself by using the dread words "socialized medicine", but calling it a "public health care system" doesn't change what it is.

I believe people should work for what they want. Get a job, earn money and buy stuff, not that it's always an easy task with today's economy. But I also believe that the current state of health care in this country is ridiculous. Should I be paying a substantial chunk of my paycheck for medical coverage that won't even cover an exotic pre-existing condition such as High Blood Pressure? That seems reasonable? Other than maintenance appointments how often does the average American use their over-priced medical insurance? Sure it's great if you fall off a ladder and break your leg, but should you be paying for years on the odd chance that you MIGHT get sick or injured? We can't all be in the teamsters union or SAG or whoever else has great insurance...like Congress for instance. Most of us work for small non union companies that can't afford SUPER insurance.

Can't believe I'm about to weigh in on this one, b/c I've enjoyed you two going at it, but...these two paragraphs are in opposition to each other. If you believe that people should work for what they want, then the government should NOT have to provide health care.

Brief background: I am a small business owner, single parent, and I have no health insurance. I work my a$$ off EVERY day, and I can't afford health insurance. So, I don't have it. When I can afford it, then I will get it. Now our lovely government is going to force me to get it? The constitution only guarantees equal rights, not equal results (nor does it guarantee health care). Why should I or anyone else expect their neighbors to pay for their healthcare or anything else?

[msc0nduct]

Wow, this shit is deep. I think I am actually learning something.I think Paul Watson and his crew are hero's but he is for sure a douche. As for everything else discussed, I don't know enough about it to comment.. I wish I did.

[Morella]

Ok, now I'm beginning to think you're intentionally missing my points just to keep me ranting. But I'll take another stab because I've always been a bit of a masochist.

Actually, most of your points are ambiguous to me. You don't explain what evidence led you to your conclusions. You place the blame for social problems first on one place then another, then you make excuses for the people you accuse as you go along, which leaves me just shaking my head and wondering what it is that you are trying to say.

Lao Tzu once said, "He is who discontended should demand more from himself." I suggest that you consider this philosophy.

I've never trusted my government as far as I could throw my hearse.

Yet you want to trust your health to the government. That just makes no sense to me.

I don't know whether or not the moon landing really happened, because I wasn't there. Most of what we know about the moon landing was seen on television, where there is no defining line between fantasy and reality.

Russia was kicking our ass in the space race right straight along and then suddenly "shazam" we leap ahead of 'em and land on the moon.

The end result of it was that Americans felt safer, and we have the technology that we enjoy today mainly as a result of research done in the space program, so, whether it was faked or not, it was probably a good thing. I guess I just don't see what your problem is.

That's one of the reasons I like to play with the idea that the moon landing might not have happened.

Do you mean that you have done some research into the issue? If so, people might be interested in your evidence...probably not so much in your conclusions, and probably not at all in an unfounded accusation.

Uhmm. Obama's only been in office how long? Where's a manned Mars landing?

We're spending the money on health care for illegal aliens and bums, putting people in jail for using drugs, regulating the hell out of industry, junk science like global warming and ozone layer holes, welfare, food stamps, education for people who can't or don't want to learn anything, wheelchair ramps, etc., perhaps because these are the things which seem to interest people. I rarely ever hear anyone mention the need for a manned Mars landing.

I, for one, would like very much to go into space, but not to Mars. I already live in a dried-up shithole. Unfortunately, the technology that Humans have will not put them into space in my lifetime. If I'm going to get out there, someone else is going to have to come and get me, and since I don't live in a trailer park and I have all of my teeth, a UFO abduction is not likely. I'm stuck on this planet, and I try to make the best of it.

I don't fully understand the mathematics involved, but, by acting as a technician rather than an engineer, putting together bits and pieces of other people's work, I came to the conclusion that Humans simply do not have the fuel to do it. Interstellar travel would require what would be, to put it in the simplest of terms, continuous acceleration, and the rockets that Earth is launching exhaust most of their fuel just breaking out of the atmosphere.

Some people like to complain, and some people work to solve their problems. I can tell you right now that you are not going to the stars in your lifetime, but if you believe that this is something that Humans should research, and you feel strongly about it, why aren't you getting a PhD in physics and participating in the research? Is it just easier to sit on your ass and complain about what someone else is not doing?

Where's the significant progressed towards interstellar flight? I have a hard time believing you're blaming Obama for decades of not a lot of space research happening.

First of all, I'm not the one who is complaining about decades of space research. That is your kick, not mine. I blame Obama, and his cronies, only for what they have actually done, and I have been very specific about that. Note the word "specific"...if you want to make a point, you have to be specific.

I suspect that's one of the reasons the space program is on the chopping block. They haven't been doing a Hell of a lot except servicing satellites.

You mean the satellites that we depend on for national security, global communications, navigation, and, perhaps more importantly, entertainment? These things are more important than researching interstellar travel, which we will not have the fuel to do in our lifetime. Cutting the funds to support them will result in the US having to depend on other countries for our national security...does that make sense to you? What, do you think, might be the motivation for putting our country into that position?

Seems a bit odd, where has NASA been spending our tax dollars? Helping Mythbusters prove the moon landing actually happened? Seems like a fine use of government funding.

OK, let me get this straight :

1. You have a problem with the idea that the government may have faked the moon landing.

2. You don't seem to have done any actual research on the issue.

3. You don't want the government to fund anyone else to research it either.

I can see why you have no alternative but to whine and throw around baseless accusations, but what do you hope to accomplish?

I've got absolutely nothing against gasoline engines. Just like the MOST PEOPLE you referred to, I grew up around 'em. They are an essential part of our society and culture. But what if they weren't? Think of the advancements that could and would have been made over 100 years of progress. What if, instead of gasoline engines, Tesla's ideas had been put in place 100 years ago and cars worked on electric motors instead?

Tesla, did not have a specific direction and focus. No investor saw a way to profit from his ideas, and therefore there was no motivation to pursue them. It's really that simple. Someone has to have a reason to pursue, research, work toward creating technology, otherwise we're all going to do just exactly what you are doing, which is to sit on our asses and let someone else do it. This is why Capitalism works, and Socialism does not. Without profit motive, there is no motive.

Imagine an electric car that could do 140 mph with no fuel supply on board.

Imagine it yourself. Then do some research, do the math, make some sketches, build a prototype, try to sell it. Or sit on your ass and complain that no one else will do it. If you have an idea that will sell, someone will invest in your technology; otherwise, no one is going to pursue it. Your biggest complaint seems to be that someone else is not doing something...what are you doing? Maybe you can get a government grant to pursue this idea, and throw some money down the toilet on something that no one will ever want to buy?

I'm NOT advocating a socialized government. Why does anyone who mentions the notion of a public health care system get buried under the Socialist label? I know I probably brought in on myself by using the dread words "socialized medicine", but calling it a "public health care system" doesn't change what it is.

Socialized medicine is socialism, regardless of what you call it. Are you trying to make a point?

I believe people should work for what they want.

Except for health care? You did say "every man, woman, and child". You didn't specify that anyone had to be employed. Are you changing that argument? Because I've got some bad news for you. People who don't want to work are not going to work, unless they have to.

Get a job, earn money and buy stuff, not that it's always an easy task with today's economy.

I didn't say it was easy. I don't particularly appreciate spending 80% of my life living in a truck, being treated like a worthless piece of shit, and having the government take away all of my civil rights and reclassify them as "privileges". The only reason that I do it is because I get paid for it, and I'm not interested in spending that pay on your health care, supporting people who don't want to work, or on inventions that no one will ever buy.

But I also believe that the current state of health care in this country is ridiculous.

Then go to medical school and become a doctor, or do SOMETHING about it. What you seem to want is for someone else to take care of the things that you are concerned about, and that, chèr petit, is pointless.

-d

[v8nightmare]

[Scary Guy]

I wonder if his real name is Glen Beck.

[Morella]

Can't believe I'm about to weigh in on this one, b/c I've enjoyed you two going at it

So have I, much more fun than arguing with Stodd. At least this guy has a brain...maybe not highly motivated to use it to its full potential, but at least he has one.

Some people complain about the arguing and bickering, but it seems to me that we get a lot more traffic around here when an argument is going on, so maybe there are more of us who enjoy the cinoche.

-denise