It's fucking elementary

[Uglybastard239]

So far you've indicated that I should become (and I'm working from memory here so bear with me) an Engineer, a Research Chemist, a Rocket Scientist, a Medical Doctor, a Political Scientist, an Automotive Designer, an Electrical Enginner and I'm sure there were a few more that I've forgotten over the last couple of days. I'm rather flattered by your faith in my abilities, but that's a pretty heavy work load you've outlined there.

Let me point out that I thought this is a forum for people who like to drive impractical vehicles for work and/or pleasure, NOT a Think Tank. For the record I've been doing practically ALL of these posts from memory with only the occasional Google search to grab a name or location. Sorry if my research isn't up to your standards, but that may be because I haven't bothered to do any new research. These are forum posts NOT something I'm getting paid for. My paid research is brilliant by the way. I'm just stating my opinions and like assholes, everybody has 'em and they all stink if they're not yours. Hell, some of 'em stink even when they ARE yours.

Actually, most of your points are ambiguous to me. You don't explain what evidence led you to your conclusions. You place the blame for social problems first on one place then another, then you make excuses for the people you accuse as you go along, which leaves me just shaking my head and wondering what it is that you are trying to say.

Lao Tzu once said, "He is who discontended should demand more from himself." I suggest that you consider this philosophy.

I HAVE researched just about everything I've been ranting about at one point or another in my 40 years, that's how I can pull this stuff up from memory. I read A LOT of books and I've honestly been trying to keep these posts from getting too long winded and unreadable. If you don't understand some of the stuff I'm referencing why don't you read up on the subject and then get back to me. Most of the stuff is quite interesting. There's tons of stuff on the internet about the supposed faked moon landing, there are piles of books, documentaries and webpages regarding Tesla and his amazing ideas. Do some research on subjects your not familiar with. Ya never know ya might find something interesting. There are reasons I enjoy this stuff, a lot of it's funny stuff.

Brief background: I am a small business owner, single parent, and I have no health insurance. I work my a$$ off EVERY day, and I can't afford health insurance. So, I don't have it. When I can afford it, then I will get it. Now our lovely government is going to force me to get it? The constitution only guarantees equal rights, not equal results (nor does it guarantee health care). Why should I or anyone else expect their neighbors to pay for their healthcare or anything else?

Let me start by saying good for you Jormer. I mean that, more people should be working for themselves, but the government should be trying to make it easier for you not harder. I'm not saying the constitution guarantees medical coverage, but if the current government is going to require it, then shouldn't they provide it as well?

I'd like to point out that there already is a public medical plan in place in the United States. Yes it's that welfare state that everybody is so quick to berate...unless they need it. And trust me it happens. Not just to losers and lazy assholes that don't want to work. Bear in mind I come from an area where the main sources of employment (the steel mills) simply locked their doors and moved their businesses out of the country or shut down altogether leaving people with nowhere to work, no pensions and not a Hell of a lot of options. A lot of GOOD men and women end up on welfare...shit happens.

Christ, the Lordstown auto plant (in Northeast Ohio, where at the time the employees were making $25 an hour or more) went on a VOLUNTARY strike and half the idiots ended up in the soup kitchens and on welfare. They couldn't live on their savings, because they didn't have any. They thought GM would cave in a matter of days and were shocked when the strike lasted months instead. Make what you will of these fine union laborers who chose to walk away from their high paying jobs in protest of a proposed wage and benefit cut.

But I've gotten off my original train of thought (again). Now here's a woman (Jormer) working her ass off and the government is asking her to work a little harder. This seems fair to somebody? If she were broke living on welfare, both she and her kid or kids would be completely covered. Not making medical care available at (the very least) a reasonable rate simply encourages people with children to quit their jobs and sit on their asses. As a parent their are few things scarier than your kid not having medical coverage.

Are there lazy scumbag people who are taking advantage of the system? Of course, but they've been doing it; all over the country, for generations. Hell, people are crossing our boarders (and at a rather alarming rate) just to get onto our welfare system. I personally think THAT needs to stop as well. I have no desire to see Texas, New Mexico and California reclaimed by Mexico, but that's an entirely different argument which involves sealing off our boarders and kicking anybody who isn't a citizen out...fuck the anchor babies, toss them out with their parents.

I'm not advocating the collapse of capitalism, I just don't think people should have to cash in everything they own if they happen to get sick. How many people do you know personally that have bankrupted themselves and their families because they contracted cancer, leukemia, or God knows what other disease? Does THAT seem reasonable? Good hard working people, bankrupted because they got sick.

Yet you want to trust your health to the government. That just makes no sense to me.

Of course I don't trust the government with my health. I trust my personal physician with my health, but I AM willing to trust my government to pay his bill in a timely manner.

OK, let me get this straight :

1. You have a problem with the idea that the government may have faked the moon landing.

2. You don't seem to have done any actual research on the issue.

3. You don't want the government to fund anyone else to research it either.

I can see why you have no alternative but to whine and throw around baseless accusations, but what do you hope to accomplish?

1. I have NO problem with whether or not the government faked anything. Wouldn't matter if I did, it's a HUGE faceless organization that's going to do what it wants whether I like it or not (kind of scary if you think about it).

2. As state above I've done lots of research on the subject. I've been a huge fan of the space program since I was a little kid right up through the space shuttle launches. I've read some books, watched some documentaries. I didn't realize I needed to write a dissertation on the subject in order to state what I think is a humorous opinion. How is a faked moon landing NOT funny? Unless you're a cosmonaut I suppose.

3. Well, call my a suspicious Sally, but NO. I don't see the value in the government funding an investigation into whether they faked the moon landing. I'm pretty sure I can guess the results. Also I NEVER claimed the funded the Mythbusters. They merely provided facilities, materials and man hours to help with the production of the show. That's COMPLETELY different.



Continued on Next Post due to this replies ridiculous length. My apologies.

[Uglybastard239]

Tesla, did not have a specific direction and focus. No investor saw a way to profit from his ideas, and therefore there was no motivation to pursue them. It's really that simple. Someone has to have a reason to pursue, research, work toward creating technology, otherwise we're all going to do just exactly what you are doing, which is to sit on our asses and let someone else do it. This is why Capitalism works, and Socialism does not. Without profit motive, there is no motive.

Tesla didn't have a specific direction and focus? Really? What do you think he built the power plant on Goat Island for? I mean other than the HUGE wad of cash he was paid. He was (allegedly) experimenting with an electrically powered Pierce Arrow. Yes, Tesla DID lose Westinghouse's sponsorship because there wasn't an immediate profit margin to be had. Which further illustrates my point regarding corporations steering America's destiny. Makes ME wonder (I know you don't like to imagine things) what the world would be like if Tesla'd had a better business manager.


Exactly where do you get your information regarding what I do with MY ass all day? Have you been accessing my webcam? What have you seen? That's a Federal Violation of privacy you know? Sorry I'm NOT another Tesla...or Tucker for that matter, but even if I was I doubt anybody would pay any attention. Hell, they didn't listen to either one or them and they were bonafide geniuses.

I bet you believe in the “Trickle Down Theory” too. You remember that theory where wealthy people should have all the money, because they live in big houses on the tops of hills and eventually some of their money will fall out of their pockets and trickle down to the poor people who live in the valley below.

I didn't say it was easy. I don't particularly appreciate spending 80% of my life living in a truck, being treated like a worthless piece of shit, and having the government take away all of my civil rights and reclassify them as "privileges". The only reason that I do it is because I get paid for it, and I'm not interested in spending that pay on your health care, supporting people who don't want to work, or on inventions that no one will ever buy.

I'm just spitballing here but if you don't particularly appreciate spending 80% of your life living in a truck, being treated like a worthless piece of shit, why don't you stop doing that and find a job that you actually enjoy. Life's too short to be angry all the time. Of course, good luck find another lucrative job in today's economy.


Unfortunately for you, if you pay your state and federal income taxes like a good little drone, you're already funding socialized medicine and unemployment compensation. It's not like there's a special tax just for them that you can choose not to pay.


As for inventions that no one will ever buy. My best friend happens to be the IT Manager at the facility that is currently gearing up to build GM's new electric car The VOLT. He assures me that the marketing people have faith that people will actually buy this car once it becomes available. Guess we'll have to wait and see. I'd mention the Hybrids that everybody's already buying up like hotcakes, but I probably haven't done enough research to support any claims to that effect regarding either hybrids OR hotcakes.


I had MORE, but the forum seems to have eaten it (possibly out of self defense) when I tried to post. If this ends up being a double post I humbly apologize...it was not me, it was the interweb.

[Morella]

So far you've indicated that I should become (and I'm working from memory here so bear with me) an Engineer, a Research Chemist, a Rocket Scientist, a Medical Doctor, a Political Scientist, an Automotive Designer, an Electrical Enginner and I'm sure there were a few more that I've forgotten over the last couple of days. I'm rather flattered by your faith in my abilities, but that's a pretty heavy work load you've outlined there.

Actually, I'm just offering a solution to what appears to be a problem for you, because that was the part that you left out...the space program has not progressed enough for you, we don't have electric cars without their own power generation, health care costs money, and...you want whom to do what? The only suggestion that you have made was regarding the health care...you want the government to pay for everything. This would amount to borrowing money from China and making our children pay the interest on the note, if they can, while the principle piles up. The government does not have any money. It is long past broke, trillions of dollars in debt, and you want it to spend more. I think that's ridiculous, and I also do not want the government involved in my life in any way, especially not with my medical decisions.

If you feel that other people are failing to meet their obligations to the progression of the aforementioned disciplines, that perhaps you should make your own contributions. Whether or not you would actually accomplish anything, I don't know, but at least you would feel better. That, in my opinion, beats borrowing money from China, or just bitching about it and doing nothing.

Let me point out that I thought this is a forum for people who like to drive impractical vehicles for work and/or pleasure, NOT a Think Tank.

Are you suggesting that we should leave our brains at the door? I normally do, but I will interject as much intelligence as is necessary to support the discussion/argument/pissing contest. If you're no longer amused with this conversation, you can always just leave it alone, and it will eventually drift its way down the list of threads.

My paid research is brilliant by the way.

Why do I feel the urge to pull out my air horn?

I read A LOT of books and I've honestly been trying to keep these posts from getting too long winded and unreadable.

Me too. I work hard at that.

I'm not saying the constitution guarantees medical coverage, but if the current government is going to require it, then shouldn't they provide it as well?

If your brilliant research has extended to the field of economics, think about it and note that you have contradicted yourself. As I mentioned, the government does not have money of its own. All they can do, in any situation, is spend yours, and they've already spent more than the ridiculous amounts that they've taken. Whether they require you to purchase insurance, or borrow money from China and tax you to pay the interest, you and our children, and our children's children, are going to pay for it. You were complaining earlier about the people, a hundred or so years ago, who profited for themselves, without regard to the effect that it would have on future generations...what's the difference between doing that and dumping the bill for your health care onto our future generations?

The majority of health care cost is due to insurance, and the massive amounts of paperwork and overhead. The more the government gets involved, the worse that is going to get. As an example, I could go to my last doctor and pay $30 cash for a visit, but once I gave them my health insurance information, it cost $25 copay, the insurance company was billed $85, and the doctor received $69. I asked if I could just pay the $30, because I was willing to pay the extra $5 myself rather than to have money wasted on administrative costs, and guess what...they weren't allowed to do that. You like to imagine things...imagine this situation getting better with the government in charge. That's a little bit of a stretch, isn't it?

Christ, the Lordstown auto plant (in Northeast Ohio where at the time the employees were making $25 an hour or more) went on a VOLUNTARY strike and half the idiots ended up in the soup kitchens and on welfare. They couldn't live on their savings, because they didn't have any.

Umm...they were making good money and didn't save any...whose fault is that?

How many people do you know personally that have bankrupted themselves and their families because they contracted cancer, leukemia, or God knows what other disease?

None, actually, but there may be others around here who have terminally ill friends or relatives, so I'm not going to go into that subject.

Where exactly would you like me to place the blame for societies woes? Is it somehow MY fault?

If you believe that throwing tax dollars at problems is the way to solve them, as you have said that you do with the health care system, then the biggest woe that society has right now is our national debt. We are trillions of dollars in debt, soon we won't even be able to pay the interest on it, and you want the government to spend more money that it doesn't have to try to make the world a perfect place? That's just not dealing with reality.

Of course I don't trust the government with my health. I trust my personal physician with my health, but I AM willing to trust my government to pay his bill in a timely manner.

With what? Sea shells?

> Also I NEVER claimed the [government?] funded the Mythbusters. They merely provided facilities, materials and man hours to help with the production of the show. That's COMPLETELY different.

How? Facilities, materials and man hours are free? I don't get it.

-denise

[Morella]

Tesla didn't have a specific direction and focus? Really? What do you think he built the power plant on Goat Island for?

Tesla patented an electric meter, and then tried to push a system of power distribution that could not be metered. Is that not indicative of a lack of focus? I was speaking from a business perspective. Invent anything you want, but if somebody doesn't have a reason to invest in it, then it's worthless.

Sorry I'm NOT another Tesla...or Tucker for that matter, but even if I was I doubt anybody would pay any attention. Hell, they didn't listen to either one or them and they were bonafide geniuses.

Who is "they"? Investors, or the ubiquitous "they"?

I bet you believe in the “Trickle Down Theory” too.

I'm not much of a believer, more of an observer and analyzer.

You remember that theory where wealthy people should have all the money, because they live in big houses on the tops of hills and eventually some of their money will fall out of their pockets and trickle down to the poor people who live in the valley below.

Leaving out the drug dealers, the Kennedy Family, and those who took multimillion dollar bribes to get Obamacare passed, most people who have money have worked hard for it, not 8 hours, 5 days a week, but many long days, many sacrifices, a whole lot of aggravation, many responsibilities, not much free time. Suppose this was the case for you, and you had several million dollars. What would you do with it? Give it all to charity? Hoard it? Those big houses on the hills were built by people who were paid whatever they were willing to work for to build them, so they had jobs. That's a good thing. Some of those builders saved their money, invested it wisely, opened their own contracting businesses, and had their own nice houses built. Others chose to spend their money in other ways. The big picture is, there is freedom in that. Where are you going with this? You want the government to leech the money from the people who have it, so that there is no incentive to contribute to the economy, or...?

I'm just spitballing here but if you don't particularly appreciate spending 80% of your life living in a truck, being treated like a worthless piece of shit, why don't you stop doing that and find a job that you actually enjoy.

That's an intelligent, and fair, question. I do it mostly to be with my husband, but also to build capital to get another business going. Of course, if I am successful, with my aviation, music, or any other business, you are going to complain when I build my house on the hill, right?

good luck find another lucrative job in today's economy.

Your point would be better taken if you hadn't contradicted yourself with that statement.

Unfortunately for you, if you pay your state and federal income taxes like a good little drone, you're already funding socialized medicine and unemployment compensation.

Interesting that you would touch on that subject, because it was already on my mind. I would like to hire a truck driver right now, and if I could just go out and find someone who was willing to drive a truck for X amount of dollars, I would. Unfortunately, I am not allowed to hire anyone unless I am willing to spend a bunch of time and money on government programs for that employee, and I'm not willing, possibly not even able to do that. So what happens when you trust the government to make a better world and solve your social woes? No jobs are created. There is an unemployed driver out there who has people who think the way that you do to thank for his situation.

As for inventions that no one will ever buy. My best friend happens to be the IT Manager at the facility that is currently gearing up to build GM's new electric car The VOLT. He assures me that the marketing people have faith that people will actually buy this car once it becomes available.

It sounds like a piece of shit to me, and I wouldn't buy one, but time will tell. What I don't want to hear is a bunch of bickering about the short-sighted, narrow minded, ubiquitous "they" who wrote off your friend as a nut job. It either sells or it doesn't. Either way, I don't believe that Obama deserves any credit for this wonderful invention...can your friend explain why he made international press ops and took credit for its development?

-denise

[Uglybastard239]

The only suggestion that you have made was regarding the health care...you want the government to pay for everything.

Well, it's not exactly that I want the government to pay for everything. I apologize if it came across that way. You may have noticed that during the course of my rambling I sometimes get off track a bit and my last two HUGE post to the contrary I do try to leave what I consider unessential details out cut down on space. You seem to thrive on these omitted details, so I'll try to be more specific.

My point is this: The current medical system in the US is fucked up.

Hospitals are closing all across the country due to lack of funding and a lack of qualified doctors to work in them. There are currently 3 hospitals sitting empty within a 20 minute drive of where I'm sitting and another one is in the process of closing down. My personal physician happens to be a close friend of the family and lives 2 doors down from my house, so we do occasionally chat. He (and MANY) of his physician friends are no longer willing to take the risks of working in hospitals. They also rarely take new patients unless they're direct referrals from people they know. Their medical malpractice insurance is making difficult for them to stay in business. Maybe it's different in your neck of the woods.

Pharmaceutical companies are making millions off of drugs that 2 years later turn out to be damn near poisonous. Ever year of a couple of birth control drugs call depro - pravara and YAZ? Depro was basically pushed onto poor women on welfare so that they'd stop having them welfare babies. In theory I'm all for it, unfortunately the drug had some unforseen side effects, like osteoporosis. Ah, but what the Hell, that's what the get for being poor. If they were worth while human beings they'd have jobs and be on some crappy HMO. YAZ, is just a bit worse. As far as I know it was never pushed by welfare doctors, but it was advertised heavily on tv and became hugely popular in a very short time. Until the the reports of Heart Attacks and Death. Both products now have lawsuits against them. How is that possible with the FDA doing their job? Or should I shut up, study Pharmacology, join the FDA and put an end to their willy ways single handedly? Oh, and that's just naming two off the top of my head. I'm almost afraid to run a Google search for drug companies that are being sued. All those lazy bastards trying to make money off the sweat of somebody else's back. It's obviously the lawyers fault.

Health Insurance and the HMOh my God it's not covered. These are great companies that provide the average American with excellent medical coverage regardless of pre-existing conditions, for a reasonable cost to value ratio. Oh wait. No they don't. They charge you out the ass and they don't cover shit. Unless you work for an excellent employer and/or you're a member of a very big union your options for medical coverage SUCK. Unless of course you're independently wealthy then who gives a fuck, it's your own fault for not having bags of cash under your bed. Get off your lazy ass and do something with your life.

There HAS to be a better way. I DO NOT KNOW THE ANSWER. I wish I did, but I'm for any system that lets me keep my kids covered and leaves me with enough money to pay the rest of my bills...oh and having a few dollars to spend wouldn't suck either. Sure I could get another job or two. Who needs time to enjoy their family or spend what little money they have?

This would amount to borrowing money from China and making our children pay the interest on the note, if they can, while the principle piles up. The government does not have any money. It is long past broke, trillions of dollars in debt, and you want it to spend more.

First off. The Democratic God "Lord Clinton" obviously proved (with no help from George, Sr.) that the budget CAN be balanced and the country CAN run at a profit. Are you trying to imply that something has changed since Clinton was in office? You think MAYBE George W. ran the country into the ground following his own self-serving interests with good-ol' boy politics, cronyism and an unproductive war in the Middle East? Go ON you say. It's not possible, everything's Obama's fault. He inherited a perfectly healthy government and economy and single handedly ran it into the ground, thereby impoverishing the nation and forcing everybody onto welfare, unemployment and devil worship.

Yeah, I'm SURE that's what happened. Obama didn't sink us into this deficit, George W and his Christian soldiers did. Obama's taking the blame 'cause he's the idiot in the office. The same way Clinton got credit for the rapid economic turn around when he took office. Couldn't have been that George Sr. had already gotten the ball rolling. Nope Clinton's a God and Obama's the Devil. Easy Peazy Lemon Squeazy.

You want to start reducing the National Debt. Let's stop importing everything we own from China. Let's force corporations to bring their businesses back to the states where they can employ Americans rather than Indians. Oh wait we can't dictate how a company operates on US soil that's unconstitutional...oh wait, NO it's not. Simple economic sanctions and import taxes could make it impractical for companies to import their shit into this country. Ask the Japanese car manufacturers how much that sucked (oh wait, I forgot, you don't do languages). Well let me tell you they hated it enough that they opened car manufacturing plants in the US and now they have to employee round-eyed Americans to build their cars. Wait...that would NEVER work in today's economy. What was I thinking. Or should I get myself posted to the Trade Commission and levy the import fees myself?

No I DO NOT want to spend more. I want resources we have to be reallocated in a practical manner so that programs that aren't producing essential goods and/or services are limited or eliminated and much needed services ARE provided. But first I'll have to get elected to Congress, get placed on a committee and then evaluate everything and straighten it out myself. I'm OMAC - The One Man Army Corp you know. (comic book geeks will get that, I swear)

Continued on next post (sorry, I did it again.)

[Uglybastard239]

I think that's ridiculous, and I also do not want the government involved in my life in any way, especially not with my medical decisions.

I think it's ridiculous too. Nobody should be forced to participate in ANY government programs they find objectionable. Thankfully there is an easy solution. Surrender your US citizenship. Then you can tell the government how you REALLY feel with no repercussions.

Are you suggesting that we should leave our brains at the door? I normally do, but I will interject as much intelligence as is necessary to support the discussion/argument/pissing contest. If you're no longer amused with this conversation, you can always just leave it alone, and it will eventually drift its way down the list of threads.

Nope, intelligent conversation is a wonderful thing. That's why I talk to myself so much. Let it alone??? And let YOU win? Hah. I have not yet begun to type. 60 words per minute are nothing to me.

The majority of health care cost is due to insurance, and the massive amounts of paperwork and overhead. The more the government gets involved, the worse that is going to get. As an example, I could go to my last doctor and pay $30 cash for a visit, but once I gave them my health insurance information, it cost $25 copay, the insurance company was billed $85, and the doctor received $69. I asked if I could just pay the $30, because I was willing to pay the extra $5 myself rather than to have money wasted on administrative costs, and guess what...they weren't allowed to do that. You like to imagine things...imagine this situation getting better with the government in charge. That's a little bit of a stretch, isn't it?

Getting a cash break from a physician for a general visit with no labs or such is NOT an uncommon thing. Kind hearted doctors often give this break to people who don't have medical insurance so that they can afford not to die of pneumonia or some other easily treated disease. They also often give out drug samples to theses same uninsured people, so that they won't die of whatever plague they've contracted that was bad enough to drag them into their office in the first place. Most doctors are NOT the problem (sure there are some slimey bastards out there but you'll have that everywhere in life). These same fine physicians who secretly help out the uninsured, regularly send standard fee bills to the insurance companies. The insurance companies themselves approve these fees and both parties know it's ridiculous, but you play the game the way the rules are written. Besides, how else are they going to pay for their yachts, sports cars, Country club memberships and greens fees.

Yes, I can imagine this situation getting better. You go to the same doctor for the same medical treatment. You walk out give the receptionist/nurse/whatever your medical card and you go home. The receptionist/nurse/whatever processes the bill in the exact same way she always has and the doctor gets paid whatever the government and he have agreed upon for said service. How is that complicated? It goes on EVERY hour of EVERY day, right now. The system already exists in every state (that's why the aliens want in so bad) all it has to be is overseen by a government approved panel of doctors. NOT politicians or economists, doctors. Oh and as an extra bonus the average family practitioner won't be taking money out of his own pocket to pay for lab work for his uninsured patients. That happens all the time too, but nobody knows about it. Did I mention the doctors are NOT the problem?

Well stuff me in a dress and call me Sally, I guess I DO want the government to pay for everything. Sort of; but hey, I'm already paying Social Security tax that I'll probably never see, so they can just use that money, plus the re-allocation of funds from other useless programs (I'm sure there a more than a few) and everything's paid for. There, financing problem solved.

But wait...if they used my (our) tax money to pay for a Health Plan wouldn't "I" (we) in fact be paying my own medical bills without the hassle of an insurance company? Lets remember that the poor and unemployed are ALREADY being cared for, it's just us working stiffs that are taking up the ass with health care. Why, you couldn't even hardly call that Socialized Medicine anymore. More like collective bargaining on a government administrated insurance plan. Just like Congress.

There's a reason I'm not working for the government to develop a Health Care System. I'm an idiot. Wait that's probably a job requirement. Maybe I should go apply. I could use the cash.

How? Facilities, materials and man hours are free? I don't get it.

Yes. The Mythbusters went to NASA's facilities. I believe it was Cape Canaveral but once again I'm too lazy to look that up. They used various multi-million (if not billion) dollar machines and apparatus, with the help of NASA employees (who I'm sure were on the clock, for insurance purposes) to simulate moon conditions. You aren't suggesting that those huge high tech machines work off perpetual motion are you? Somethings gotta power those beasts and I don't think it's love and somebody's gotta pay for that power.

I'm not saying the government went broke, but cash was spent so that they could disprove the crack-pot theories that the anti-moon landing conspiracy nuts have flooded the web with. It wasn't their best show, but it's ALWAYS fun to watch the Mythbusters do their thing.

But that is another illustration of an off the cuff remark that got misunderstood and hung around for 2 days.

The ball is now in YOUR court.

[msc0nduct]

"How many people do you know personally that have bankrupted themselves and their families because they contracted cancer, leukemia, or God knows what other disease?"
"None, actually, but there may be others around here who have terminally ill friends or relatives, so I'm not going to go into that subject."

I am one, so don't even go there... so now you know at least one Denise..

[Morella]

Ask the Japanese car manufacturers how much that sucked (oh wait, I forgot, you don't do languages).

Je m'excuse...je pense que t'es sympa, mais, de temps en temps, t'es vraiment cons ! Ou dingue? Je ne sais pas. Je m'en fous des japonais. Est-ce qu'il y a une autre langue que tu préfères ou quoi?

I believe what I originally said was :

Normally I'm pretty good at translating other languages, but I have never been able to communicate with a penguin or a blue whale.

If you want me to answer you in Japanese, you're going to have to give me some time on that one, because I would learn Mandarine Chinese before I would waste my time with it. If you want me to answer you in penguin or blue whale speak, I'll have to disappoint you. I think it would be best to continue in English so that everyone else can understand it, but, if it's other languages that you want, pick one and I'll give it a shot. In the meantime, I will continue my reply in English, unless you tell me otherwise.

-d

[Morella]

Well, it's not exactly that I want the government to pay for everything. I apologize if it came across that way.

Let's don't go fucking up a good argument by apologizing, now. Stick to your guns.

Pharmaceutical companies are making millions off of drugs that 2 years later turn out to be damn near poisonous.

That's one that I can help you with. Don't take their drugs. Believe it or not, you don't have to buy something just because it is advertised on television.

There HAS to be a better way. I DO NOT KNOW THE ANSWER.

Then I can only suggest that, if you feel so passionate about it, your time would be better spent trying to think of a solution than complaining about it, which is pointless. I can tell you that there won't be a simple solution, because there is never a simple solution to social problems. I came to the conclusion that the health care system, over the last ten or twenty years, has done me more harm than good. I think that any of the old-timers who have been here reading my crap for a while would agree with that. I want nothing to do with the medical industry, unless I'm in pain from something that is going to heal, in which case I will seek treatment for the pain, but with extreme caution. I still have a lead pellet or bullet or something in my hip, still have a fucked-up back and I'm a chronic pain case, and most people would probably continue to milk their health insurance for a solution. I have chosen just to take aspirin and live with it, until I'm dead, which will happen whenever my number is up. That's my solution to health care. As for my kids, they're covered under my UHC policy, and I really don't have any complaints about the health insurance itself.

Who needs time to enjoy their family or spend what little money they have?

Sometimes you have to prioritize, make choices. We took time off and came back to town for my daughter's graduation. That was the last family time we got. I'm alone now because Tony is out making money. We do whatever we have to do.

First off. The Democratic God "Lord Clinton" obviously proved (with no help from George, Sr.) that the budget CAN be balanced and the country CAN run at a profit.

Bullshit, smoke and mirrors. Hopefully you are being sarcastic.

You think MAYBE George W. ran the country into the ground following his wn self-serving interests with good-ol' boy politics, cronyism and an unproductive war in the Middle East? Go ON you say.

Did I say that? Are you making the mistake of assuming that I support the Republican Party?

It's not possible, everything's Obama's fault.

As I said before, I don't blame Obama and his cronies for anything but the shenanigans that they have pulled, and I have been very specific about those.

You want to start reducing the National Debt. Let's stop importing everything we own from China.

That sounds like a good start. There are still many good products made in the US. In fact, if you read the engineering forums, you'll find that there are actually standards of tolerance regarding manufacturing work that can or cannot be outsourced to China.

Let's force corporations to bring their businesses back to the states where they can employ Americans rather than Indians. Oh wait we can't dictate how a company operates on US soil that's unconstitutional...oh wait, NO it's not.

Slow down a minute. If you were on the board of directors of a manufacturing company, and you could not compete with other countries because the cost of union labor, mandatory health insurance, corporate taxes, personal taxes, minimum wage, social security, etc., etc, all of the crap that companies have to do to hire people in the US, and you had a choice of closing your plant or moving it overseas, which would you do? Just lock up and fuck yourself and your shareholders out of your retirement plans? The government can't force you to stay in business if you're bankrupt, unless they borrow more money from China and buy you out, like, for instance, they did General Motors, and borrowing more money from China is only going to make the situation worse.

What if, just imagine this, because I know you like to imagine things...the government quit flushing money down the toilet for a while and gave corporations a tax break that would enable them to hire Americans. Would that make the situation better, or worse?

No I DO NOT want to spend more.

I think we can toss out your idea of going to socialized medicine, then. Have we gotten that far?

-Glen Beck

[Morella]

I think it's ridiculous too. Nobody should be forced to participate in ANY government programs they find objectionable. Thankfully there is an easy solution. Surrender your US citizenship. Then you can tell the government how you REALLY feel with no repercussions.

What makes you think that I'm a US citizen, or was that just a general suggestion meant for everyone?

Getting a cash break from a physician for a general visit with no labs or such is NOT an uncommon thing. Kind hearted doctors often give this break to people who don't have medical insurance so that they can afford not to die of pneumonia or some other easily treated disease.

I don't know about that. I just went in to get a Nuvia ring.

Yes, I can imagine this situation getting better. You go to the same doctor for the same medical treatment. You walk out give the receptionist/nurse/whatever your medical card and you go home. The receptionist/nurse/whatever processes the bill in the exact same way she always has and the doctor gets paid whatever the government and he have agreed upon for said service.

Bwahahaha! Agreed upon? Are we talking about the same government here?

Well stuff me in a dress and call me Sally, I guess I DO want the government to pay for everything.

Oh fuck, and just when I thought we were getting somewhere...

Sort of; but hey, I'm already paying Social Security tax that I'll probably never see, so they can just use that money

What money? I'm trying to tell you...there isn't any. Social Security is a Ponzi
scheme, and, sooner or later, it's going to blow up. Remember the phrase, "social security is funded well into the 21st century?" How well are we so far? Obama's plan, and he has been quite clear about this since the beginning of his campaign, is just to let old people die. You have to admire him for that, because he is the first person who has actually proposed a solution, but I'm not sure that that would be the first one that I would have gone public with. It makes sense to me until I start thinking about my mother, who is on social security. I think that I would probably pay her medical bills, if she made the decision that a medical procedure would save her life, in her old age. What would you do?

I mean, about social security, of course.

plus the re-allocation of funds from other useless programs

Useless programs like interstellar travel, or powerless electric cars, or do you still want those?

But wait...if they used my (our) tax money to pay for a Health Plan wouldn't "I" (we) in fact be paying my own medical bills without the hassle of an insurance company? Lets remember that the poor and unemployed are ALREADY being cared for, it's just us working stiffs that are taking up the ass with health care.

How are we "taking it up the ass"? Prostate exams? Enemas? I have good health insurance. I have to work for it, but I have it. My only complaint is that really stupid people seem to be attracted to health care staffing, but stupid people are everywhere and there isn't anything I can do about that, so I don't complain about it very often.

But that is another illustration of an off the cuff remark that got misunderstood and hung around for 2 days.

Well, some of the stuff that you say is so ridiculous and contradictory that it can be difficult to sort out what is supposed to be serious...or is any of this supposed to be serious? It doesn't really matter to me either way, I'm just killing time until I can get back to work.

-denise

[Scary Guy]

[Jormer]

S

Let me start by saying good for you Jormer. I mean that, more people should be working for themselves, but the government should be trying to make it easier for you not harder. I'm not saying the constitution guarantees medical coverage, but if the current government is going to require it, then shouldn't they provide it as well?



But I've gotten off my original train of thought (again). Now here's a woman (Jormer) working her ass off and the government is asking her to work a little harder. This seems fair to somebody? If she were broke living on welfare, both she and her kid or kids would be completely covered. Not making medical care available at (the very least) a reasonable rate simply encourages people with children to quit their jobs and sit on their asses. As a parent their are few things scarier than your kid not having medical coverage.

I don't want the government to make things easier nor harder for me...I want them to leave me alone. I chose to have my children, not society. If things get bad, I will work a second or third job in order to provide for my kids...I've done it before and I'd do it again. There are jobs out there for ANYONE. It isn't beneath me to flip burgers, clean toilets, shovel dog shit, or collect cans in order to NOT have anyone else pay for me or mine. Again, like anyone else, I chose to have my kids, not my neighbors. My life, my choices, my decisions, my consequences, and if I don't expect anyone else (especially the government) to pay for us, then I don't expect to pay for others. We as a people have been conditioned to believe that we are "entitled". We are not. We have the Bill of Rights, nothing more, nothing less. Don't tax me and say it's because we are entitled to healthcare or anything else...I manage my money much better than the government ever could for me.

Should tragedy occur medically for my family, there are other ways to raise funding to pay for catastrophic costs - you have to think outside the box. We have had it happen, and we have done it - legally, and without government "intervention".

[Uglybastard239]

Je m'excuse...je pense que t'es sympa, mais, de temps en temps, t'es vraiment cons ! Ou dingue? Je ne sais pas. Je m'en fous des japonais. Est-ce qu'il y a une autre langue que tu préfères ou quoi?

Ok, my mistake. I apologize. I had forgotten your apparent love for French. Penguins and Whales are out, but you're set for frogs.

Pharmaceutical companies are making millions off of drugs that 2 years later turn out to be damn near poisonous.

That's one that I can help you with. Don't take their drugs. Believe it or not, you don't have to buy something just because it is advertised on television.

Trust me I don't take any more pills than I absolutely have to. I think one of the reasons this country is falling apart is because we've become a nation of hypochondriacs...and the pharmaceutical companies are in front of the furnace shoveling more coal on the fire.

If you were on the board of directors of a manufacturing company, and you could not compete with other countries because the cost of union labor, mandatory health insurance, corporate taxes, personal taxes, minimum wage, social security, etc., etc, all of the crap that companies have to do to hire people in the US, and you had a choice of closing your plant or moving it overseas, which would you do? Just lock up and fuck yourself and your shareholders out of your retirement plans? The government can't force you to stay in business if you're bankrupt, unless they borrow more money from China and buy you out, like, for instance, they did General Motors, and borrowing more money from China is only going to make the situation worse.

You're absolutely right. Those are EXACTLY the factors that caused the steel mills and many, many other corporations to shut their doors. Of course it was the unions and by extension the American workers themselves (who thought/think they were entitled to these high wages and benefits packages) that made these demands of the industries, NOT the government. I don't believe the government should force any company to do business inside the US or should it stop a company from going bankrupt.

The Big Threes should have reaped the rewards of their own piss poor business practices. How many decades can you ignore the obvious wishes of your customer base and expect to stay in business. You may think nobody wants fuel efficient vehicles, electric cars or eco-friendly hybrids but that's what the market finally seems to be heading to...that and pseudo muscle cars. Odd mix.

I DO believe that government authorities should stop companies from shutting down, moving overseas, shafting their US employees out of pay and pension agreements only to reopen in Bangladesh and start shipping their products into the US for a higher profit margin.

I would personally like to see NAFTA and WTO run through a shredder. They were bad ideas from the start. I can't imagine the short sighted thinking that led to these trade acts being put in place, even over the protests of American businesses and workers. I know I signed more than one petition to stop NAFTA from becoming a reality to no avail.

I would also like to see Tariffs put into place on China and any other country that is still using child labor. Make the damn products too expensive to import and they'll bring the companies back to the US. Worked on the Japanese it'll work on the companies operating in China just as well. It all they're worried about is a profit margin, then hit them where it hurts.

What if, just imagine this, because I know you like to imagine things...the government quit flushing money down the toilet for a while and gave corporations a tax break that would enable them to hire Americans. Would that make the situation better, or worse?

What kinds of breaks are you looking for? I'm all for seeing the government encourage business in the US. Can the US embrace non-union businesses? Even after decades of Unions bending the American worker over the nearest table, the rank and file US citizen's knee jerk reaction is still to support unions. No business (small or otherwise) wants to deal with unions, that's one of the main reasons they're overseas. Unions are WAY more hassle than they're worth. Unrealistic wage demands and a companies inability to fire a union member for simply being a lazy asshole who doesn't do his job are just the tip of the iceberg. American workers and their unrealistic sense of entitlement are also a big part of the problem.

[Uglybastard239]

Social Security is a Ponzi scheme, and, sooner or later, it's going to blow up. Remember the phrase, "social security is funded well into the 21st century?" How well are we so far? Obama's plan, and he has been quite clear about this since the beginning of his campaign, is just to let old people die. You have to admire him for that, because he is the first person who has actually proposed a solution, but I'm not sure that that would be the first one that I would have gone public with. It makes sense to me until I start thinking about my mother, who is on social security. I think that I would probably pay her medical bills, if she made the decision that a medical procedure would save her life, in her old age. What would you do?

I mean, about social security, of course.

I have to admit (and I said this at the beginning of this post) that I am NOT up to date on current events. I no longer work in an office where I can kill time reading Newsweek and Time magazine. I did do a very quick search on Google for "Obama old people die" and got a couple of amusing pages. I suspect the hubbub you mention is based on the interview with Jane Sturm but I could be wrong.

For those not familiar please run a search and read up on it. In short Obama is accused of not caring if a 105 year old woman dies, simply because she's old. This is WAY oversimplifying the situation. Obama was simply trying not to get backed into a corner on a VERY difficult question. If you're going to set up a Public Health Program, when should medical treatment stop due to old age or infirmity. How do you answer that when an individual is talking about their 105 year old mother? Insurance companies have guidelines for these situations and Hospitals routinely reject people for transplant surgeries based on over-all health conditions...not "spirit to live".

All insurance companies have guidelines and restrictions that SUCK. Some more than others. Medicaid and Medicare have governing guidelines just like every other insurance company. Medicine is not a pretty business, that's one of the reasons it shouldn't be run for a profit. Should the old lady have been told to die in the street? No, but that doesn't mean I want a hundred thousand dollars in tax money spent so she can try for the oldest woman in the world. You want an operation that 2 out of 3 doctors say is a BAD idea, pay for it yourself. Throwing that kind of money away is what got us under this crushing debt in the first place.

plus the re-allocation of funds from other useless programs

Useless programs like interstellar travel, or powerless electric cars, or do you still want those?

Yes I want my flying hearse dammit. That's NEVER gonna change. On my death bed I'll probably still be bitching about not having a flying hearse.

As for ill spent money in our government. Again I haven't bothered to do any research on the current number of silly ass programs the government may or may not be funding at this time. There are usually at least a couple dozen that are true prize winners, but lets assume all the current programs are justifiable.

Why don't we take a look at current Federal Employee wages. Is there a reason that most Federal Employees make 1 1/2 to 3 times more than their civilian market counterparts? They usually (but not always) do less work for more money, with better benefits and little chance of being fired...no matter how rude they are to the public.

I have a friend who is probably a bailiff to a Federal Judge by now (I haven't talked to her in a year or so). She started out as a legal secretary/receptionist in one of the offices I worked at as a file clerk. She moved to another law firm and convinced them to hire me as their billing clerk so I ended up working with her for 3 or 4 years.

Luckily for her she got a job at the a Federal Court as an intake clerk. Basically she spent her days taking in filings, making sure all the pages were there, date stamping them and giving them to whichever judge they were for. MUCH less work than she had been doing in the private sector for a starting salary of 1 1/2 times what she was making after 2 or 3 years at her previous job. Last I heard she was trying to become a bailiff which would have pushed her work load down and her earnings even higher. I love her to death and I'm glad she's doing well, but that's just silly to me.

This is NOT an uncommon practice with State and Federal Employees. You want to save tax dollars, start making government employees work for realistic starting wages, with reasonable cost of living increases...which is more than a lot of us get.

How are we "taking it up the ass"? Prostate exams? Enemas? I have good health insurance. I have to work for it, but I have it. My only complaint is that really stupid people seem to be attracted to health care staffing, but stupid people are everywhere and there isn't anything I can do about that, so I don't complain about it very often.

I'm glad to hear you have good health insurance. Apparently your one of the lucky ones. Without the benefit of collective bargaining most of us have crap options for health care. The company I work for offers us health insurance that MOST of the people around here are envious of. It's great alright, it takes a ridiculous chunk out of my check and doesn't cover pre-existing conditions...like HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE. How stupid is that? Why would they want to pay for something you actually need?

If a Public Health Care Plan can provide cheap or preferably free medical coverage by using collective bargaining and tax dollar payments I'm all for it. Nobody is saying you have to surrender your excellent medical coverage if you don't want to. I'm sure your insurance company isn't going to go out of business overnight, but it would be nice if there was a safety net for the wage slaves that can't afford decent coverage.

Not that I think ANYONE should be forced to use that medical coverage. You should ALWAYS have the right to refuse medical treatment for yourself.

[Uglybastard239]

I don't want the government to make things easier nor harder for me...I want them to leave me alone. I chose to have my children, not society. If things get bad, I will work a second or third job in order to provide for my kids...I've done it before and I'd do it again.

Ok, I just want to be clear that I wasn't accusing you of ever being a welfare mom or aspiring to be one. I was simply using you as an example. I think it's great that you're willing to work and running your own business. I wish more people shared your sentiment.

But MOST single mothers (and some married ones I know) seem to be very happy sitting on the couch waiting for a check

There are jobs out there for ANYONE. It isn't beneath me to flip burgers, clean toilets, shovel dog shit, or collect cans in order to NOT have anyone else pay for me or mine. Again, like anyone else, I chose to have my kids, not my neighbors. My life, my choices, my decisions, my consequences, and if I don't expect anyone else (especially the government) to pay for us, then I don't expect to pay for others.

While I agree with you in theory I have a problem with this statement. While I don't believe ANY job is beneath anybody; Hell I've cleaned toilets and washed dishes for a living myself, jobs aren't always that easy to find. At least not in MY neck of the woods. Northeast Ohio has a VERY high unemployment rate and just being willing to do ANY job out there isn't always enough. Around here there are typically 2 to 3 hundred people applying for every job listed. Not great odds for employment.

Not expecting the government to pay for you doesn't mean they're not going to pay for anybody else. If you're working and paying your taxes you're ALREADY paying for other people's support. It's been going on for decades and isn't likely to change anytime soon.

We as a people have been conditioned to believe that we are "entitled". We are not. We have the Bill of Rights, nothing more, nothing less. Don't tax me and say it's because we are entitled to healthcare or anything else...I manage my money much better than the government ever could for me.

I certainly agree that you can manage your money better than the government...but that's not really saying a Hell of a lot. A gifted 3 year old could probably do a better job than some of the yabos (boobs) that are running our government. Unfortunately, the best and the brightest don't usually work for the government. Unless they're trying to avoid any actual work.

Should tragedy occur medically for my family, there are other ways to raise funding to pay for catastrophic costs - you have to think outside the box. We have had it happen, and we have done it - legally, and without government "intervention".

Well, I'm glad to hear that. I've DJd for a couple different cancer patients; from local bars, to help raise funds to cover medical bills and we managed to raise around five hundred bucks or so. If you have a legal and reliable system for raising LARGE amounts of cash...I'm talking hundreds of thousands of dollars (a drop in the bucket for a terminal cancer patient) then I wish you would write a book and share this information with the general public. This would be useful information to a LOT of people.