How far would you have pushed the issue?

[Scary Guy]

You were way out of line, and lucky you didn't get arrested, but it wasn't entirely your fault. Since when was it appropriate for a band to open with the National Anthem at a bar/resto? It isn't the time or place for reverence, or patriotism.

-d

I disagree, since it's their right to play what they wish and show their patriotism and love for the country. Just as it's that other guy's right not to stand or take his hat off. This is also guaranteed under the first amendment under "freedom of expression". Or maybe he was just lazy and not trying to make a statement. Even still, that's his choice.

[Morella]

I disagree, since it's their right to play what they wish and show their patriotism and love for the country.

It is their right to sit around and watch television, or have a circle jerk, for that matter, but not while they're on the clock. The National Anthem is just not appropriate for that venue. Baseball games, yes. Public assemblies, yes. Bar/resto in Vegas? No. It would be a "buzz killer". They might as well be playing church music.

Do you have the right not to stand and respect the flag? D'apres moi, Yes. If I were drinking and having a good time, and someone started playing the national anthem, I would either ignore it, or walk out. There is a time to be reverent, and a time to party, and the two just don't overlap in a bar in Vegas.

As for yelling at someone, threatening someone, or poking a finger in someone's chest, I can't speak for Nevada, but it in Arizona, it is callled "assault", and you go to jail for it.

-denise

[nmacarthur]

Title 36 Subtitle I Part A Chapter 3 § 301 USC states:

(a) Designation.— The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
(b) Conduct During Playing.— During a rendition of the national anthem—
(1) when the flag is displayed—
(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;
(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and
(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

You were right and I applaud you for being vigilant to the disrespect of our national anthem.

This code has more to do with those in the military than civilians.

Custom

United States Code, 36 U.S.C. § 301, states that during a rendition of the national anthem, when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart; Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present and not in uniform may render the military salute; men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed. The national anthem is also played on U.S. military installations at the beginning of the duty day (0600) and at the end of duty day (1700). Military law requires all vehicles on the installation to stop when the song is played and all individuals outside to stand at attention and face the direction of the music and either salute, in uniform, or place the right hand over the heart, if out of uniform. Recently enacted law in 2008 allows military veterans to salute out of uniform, as well.[16][17]

However, this statutory suggestion does not have any penalty associated with violations. 36 U.S.C. § 301 Moreover, generations of students who were introduced to flag etiquette prior to its enactment in 1998 were taught that the hand over the heart gesture was exclusively for the Pledge of Allegiance which has had the statutory requirement for much longer.(4 U.S.C. § 4)[citation needed] This behavioral requirement for the national anthem is subject to the same First Amendment controversies that surround the Pledge.[18] For example, Jehovah’s Witnesses are not required to stand for or sing the national anthem.[19][20][21]

(my bold)

Just weighing in my .02 - yes could have potentially gone too far. With the first amendment, both you and him have the right to freedom of speech. You're both correct in your will to observe this custom.

There is no right to take it beyond that and verbally/physically assault someone.

[BIGEVIL]

As for yelling at someone, threatening someone, or poking a finger in someone's chest, I can't speak for Nevada, but it in Arizona, it is callled "assault", and you go to jail for it.

As written in my 1st post, I stopped just short of the poking in the chest routine. I never verbally threatened him or made contact. I'm sure it was my physical stature and angry look on my face that made his butt pucker. My conversation/monologue was specifically about showing respect for our country and those who have fallen for it. At the end of my rant, I closed with "It is your God given right not to stand, but it doesn't make it the right thing to do."

I'm not sorry for what I did, but I may chose a different course of action if I am ever faced with the issue again.

[51ambulance]

Thanks

My conversation/monologue was specifically about showing respect for our country and those who have fallen for it.

I understand all aspects of the issue, however, I just want to say.

Bigevil,
As a Vietnam Veteran who served as a medic and saw, and was with, good men who died - Thanks!

[SuperSnake]

This code has more to do with those in the military than civilians.

Custom

United States Code, 36 U.S.C. § 301, states that during a rendition of the national anthem, when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart; Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present and not in uniform may render the military salute; men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed. The national anthem is also played on U.S. military installations at the beginning of the duty day (0600) and at the end of duty day (1700). Military law requires all vehicles on the installation to stop when the song is played and all individuals outside to stand at attention and face the direction of the music and either salute, in uniform, or place the right hand over the heart, if out of uniform. Recently enacted law in 2008 allows military veterans to salute out of uniform, as well.[16][17]

However, this statutory suggestion does not have any penalty associated with violations. 36 U.S.C. § 301 Moreover, generations of students who were introduced to flag etiquette prior to its enactment in 1998 were taught that the hand over the heart gesture was exclusively for the Pledge of Allegiance which has had the statutory requirement for much longer.(4 U.S.C. § 4)[citation needed] This behavioral requirement for the national anthem is subject to the same First Amendment controversies that surround the Pledge.[18] For example, Jehovah’s Witnesses are not required to stand for or sing the national anthem.[19][20][21]

(my bold)

Just weighing in my .02 - yes could have potentially gone too far. With the first amendment, both you and him have the right to freedom of speech. You're both correct in your will to observe this custom.

There is no right to take it beyond that and verbally/physically assault someone.

I hate to break it to you, but 36 USC applies to ALL citizens of the US. If you want to talk military, then you'd go to titles 10 and 32. Each service has their own regulation which specifies salutes and honors to the flag and the anthem therefore, I reiterate my first sentence...

[Guest]

I hate to break it to you, but 36 USC applies to ALL citizens of the US.

yeah but that doesn't change the fact that there are no criminal penalties associated with non-compliance.

think about if you were on the other side of the issue - when obama has us pledging allegiance to him - wouldn't you want the right to sit that one out?

[nmacarthur]

I hate to break it to you, but 36 USC applies to ALL citizens of the US. If you want to talk military, then you'd go to titles 10 and 32. Each service has their own regulation which specifies salutes and honors to the flag and the anthem therefore, I reiterate my first sentence...

Hence why I bolded what I did - and Ryan is reiterating it.

I would suggest taking a step back and looking at a bigger picture. I won't speak for all (or assume to) but for myself - I enjoy my liberty. I want to live my life as I see fit. I do not agree with laws that hinder or restrict my decisions and actions (as a consenting adult).

Now, someone can tell me all they want that they don't like whatever it is I'm doing or not doing. When that intent drives people to make laws, we part ways. It's the attitude, beliefs and conviction where people think they are right and can dictate that others should live the same that drives them and lawmakers to enact laws to control others actions.

In this instance, there's nothing wrong with being patriotic. Is someone less patriotic for not following custom to a tea? Who is to say? I may be misreading this, but it would seem there is a bit of glorification for a bullying attitude. If I were to get all bent out of shape because someone did or didn't do something I didn't like, then the problem would be with me.

[Morella]

think about if you were on the other side of the issue - when obama has us pledging allegiance to him - wouldn't you want the right to sit that one out?

That's a very good point, and, unfortunately, very realistic.

Considering that we live in a socialist country ruled by a Muslim demagogue, we're at war with Islam, and the rest of the world no longer honors our government, or our currency, I just find the National Anthem thing hard to get excited about. These days, I'm just trying to enjoy what is left of the United States, and get the best out of what is left of my life.

National Anthem? Pledge of Allegiance? Je m'en fous !

-d

[Scary Guy]

It is their right to sit around and watch television, or have a circle jerk, for that matter, but not while they're on the clock. The National Anthem is just not appropriate for that venue. Baseball games, yes. Public assemblies, yes. Bar/resto in Vegas? No. It would be a "buzz killer". They might as well be playing church music.

I don't go to see christian bands. You know how you show your distaste for it? You don't go to the show and you don't give them your money, unless they were opening for a band you wanted to see. In that instance you could even go as far as to complain to the management of the place, or complain to the band, and possibly walk out (and come back later when they're off).

However no one cares what you want, and they are the "artists" (or at least they think they are).

I have no problem with patriotism especially when the country deserves it. I do have a problem with shitty bands however. If they start playing a song I like but are doing a shitty cover of it I will let them know. If they're bad enough I'll heckle them during their act.

There was a band called Belini that opened for another bands I wanted to see called The Black Heart Procession. BHP was awesome, but Belini (which to the venue's credit they put on as early as possible) just sounded like an audio trainwreck. It was like experimental noise mixed with punk mixed with bad timing and it was so loud. I wanted to throw a chair at the stage they were that fucking bad. We walked out to another part of the bar (It's a big complex) and saw another decent band that was not Belini. Hell I'd have rather listened to an ICP show than Belini, or maybe a christian rock fest than listen to Belini. If when I die I'm completely wrong and there is a hell and it's based off personal experiences I will be at a never ending Belini concert. I told the venue to stock rotten tomatoes so I could throw them next time. I think the sound guy got the point and everyone else hated them too.

My point is that the next time they play anywhere I will not attend the show except to burn them alive, and even then I don't want to do that because it means I'd have to get close to them. Make them die, make them die, oh please make them die.

[Morella]

I had a bad experience with a warm up band for the Scorpions a few years ago. I didn't use nearly enough drugs before I went to the concert, and I forgot my ear plugs.

Listening to really bad music is a way of life for me, because I'm into karaoké, but I applaud for everything, no matter how much of my skin it peeled off, because these are amateurs who just managed to get up the nerve to pick up the mic and "take it like a man". Most people won't do it. When I go to a concert, and pay for a ticket, though, I expect the very best, and I also get PO'd when pro musicians either don't have the talent, or don't make the effort. If they're not going to entertain me, they should be trimming my palm trees or something.

-d

[Seraph]

BIGEVIL, I would've felt the same way you did, but I wouldn't have bothered with the guy. That said, the only thing I can fault you for here is expecting decent behavior from people in a bar, or really any public place nowadays.

[pyro]

Why do cowboys think they can wear their hat evryfuckinwhere? hey dont take it off for the National Anthem, nor in dinners, or any place where a self respecting person would show courtesy to others in removing their hat.

Is their horse parked outside? Have they ever ridden a horse? I wear a leather jacket because I ride a bike. Not because I want to look trendy.

[Scary Guy]

Why do cowboys think they can wear their hat evryfuckinwhere? hey dont take it off for the National Anthem, nor in dinners, or any place where a self respecting person would show courtesy to others in removing their hat.

Is their horse parked outside? Have they ever ridden a horse? I wear a leather jacket because I ride a bike. Not because I want to look trendy.

First, eat a dick, I like my hat

Second, up here people don't have respect for SHIT anymore. Go into any diner and unless it's high end requiring a suit and tie about 1/3 to half will have a baseball cap on or some other head covering.

Still I respect their right not to, but it is annoying. More places need hat and coat hooks though so at least people have the option of using them.

[Otto Baron]

Were the girls wearing sleaves on their outfits? If not, they were exercising their rights to bare arms.